thealm
Member
Could Class 769s be used on the Southern (or what ever the next franchise will be called) IF they decide to replace the current 171s.
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Class 769s for Southern?
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Islineclear3_1
Established Member
Aghhh, not another microfleet...and especially if they don't work!
Just electrify the Uckfield and Marshlink so that common EMU stock can be used
Just electrify the Uckfield and Marshlink so that common EMU stock can be used
Bob Price
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Think they will end up with third rail/battery bi modes. Bringing back the 319's may not go down too well.
Passengers between Ashford and Hastings never had 319s so it isn't really 'bringing back' 319s. They might however not welcome older trains than they currently have.
Bob Price
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Didn't Southern have 319's? I meant collectively as part of new franchise announcements. Appreciate they never ran in that area.
Yes, they did - ran suburban services, Brighton to Rugby and Brighton / Horsham to London - but clearly not on the same routes 769s might operate on.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
They also ran between Guildford and London Bridge in the peaks, but again, as JonathanH mentions, not on the routes 769s might operate
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
If you ask me, 171 to what is effectively a 319 is an immense downgrade
RichJF
Established Member
Mk3 bodyshells (319/455) I believe can't pass through Oxted or Hurst Green tunnel as the bodyshell is too wide. The tapered BR/Electrostar bodyshell allows them to pass through.
Yonks ago when the slam doors were replaced they were talking about using 319s to East Grinstead but they couldn't clear them so used Electrostars instead.
I reckon we'll see a form of class 387/379 battery EMU.
You'll be lucky to get 769 anyway. The amount of stink that was thrown up on the Oxted Lines about the 700 vs the 377 was telling...
Yonks ago when the slam doors were replaced they were talking about using 319s to East Grinstead but they couldn't clear them so used Electrostars instead.
I reckon we'll see a form of class 387/379 battery EMU.
You'll be lucky to get 769 anyway. The amount of stink that was thrown up on the Oxted Lines about the 700 vs the 377 was telling...
sussexbythesea
Member
No thanks, the 171s are the most comfortable trains in the whole Southern fleet!
MatthewRead
On Moderation
Exactly that is what I was trying to tell you the Marden Park/Oxted tunnel is the reason MArk 3 derived rolling stock is banned from that line they could only go as far as Woldingham. But out of interest would it not be possible to widen the tunnel there so's 769's etc could fit through.
Making tunnels wider is a major undertaking
https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2016/03/03/farnworth-tunnel-once-in-a-lifetime/
Whether you could single the line through Oxted tunnel like they did on the Hastings line and accept the timetabling constraints is a different matter.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
Look what happened to the tunnels on the Hastings line? They were built to restricted loading gauge and weren't widened. Electrification in 1985/6 saw some singling of the line through the tunnels. Can't see singling happening in Oxted tunnel however....
trainmania100
Established Member
Would be nice to have some longer trains on the marshlink. 2/171s can often be very packed. I'm guessing it's a little better now they don't run to Brighton (as they don't take passengers between Brighton and Lewes now(
Class 466
Established Member
Nope, still all full and standing leaving Ashford last weekend!
What happens if one of them fails south of Hurst Green? What recovers it?
Nym
Established Member
The hopes and dreams of those in the DfT that think this is a good idea?
Can they just put some kind of recovery device in Oxted bay sufficient to haul an empty unit if necessary, or, alternatively, install a long tow cable?
Terry Tait
Member
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Never had all these issues with Thumpers
MatthewRead
On Moderation
That's because they weren't based on the same bodyshell.
Maybe not, but stringing together a load of 205s off preserved railways to cover the service wouldn't go down very well with modern day travellers.
Long tow cable - Don't give them ideas someone in the DfT will think that's a great idea!
Obviously they could have some form of recovery unit in the bay at Oxted, however you also need someone to drive it, and we can probably be fairly certain that there wont be the money for either option. So if the units can't self recover presumably a rescue loco will need to be sent from Selhurst or Stewarts Lane and in the meantime the line will be shut.
It may be that a battery train will be able to tow another one but it seems unlikely, although am I right in thinking that the electric 800s on the East Coast line do have an emergency diesel engine to allow them to self recover in the event of a power failure so presumably a battery hybrid could have one too?
Not sure about that. The old 205's were a lot more comfortable than many of the new rolling stock, and many passengers have forgotten just how unreliable they were!
I don't think we should be looking at the difficulties various projects are having slinging diesels reliably under EMUs like the 230 and 769 as representative of the challenges fitting batteries to these or more modern units. The cells will have a limited life, which must be taken into account in the whole life economic case clearly, but that is highly predictable and manageable in operation. Adding batteries to an already reliable modern unit should not reduce its reliability or availability if carried out properly and once the niggles have been shaken out of an initial design. The ability to move under their own power could also get these trains to the next station during power outages and isolations on electrified tracks.
RichJF
Established Member
Given all these bi-mode options, we could end with something fully bi-mode like the GWR 800s that can operate just as effectively on diesel/electric.
Or we could just end up with new build diesels!
Or we could just end up with new build diesels!
I am not particularly worried about the issues around diesel engines in electric units to provide power off grid, but much more concerned about the idea of a battery train off grid, should it fail whether battery related or something else, what then recovers it. Currently most trains self recover or can be recovered by other trains in the fleet, will that apply to trains running on battery power.
I would have thought that battery equipped EMU trains on non-electrified sections should be able to recover each other, just as one fully functional standard EMU can recover another 'on grid'. In both cases it might be a struggle to start the combined weight of two units with the tractive effort of just one, but while not likely to break any records nor even meet the regular section timings the arrangement should provide a means of getting the passengers to the next station and the crippled stock to a siding out of the way, and eventually a depot for attention.
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