I cannot understand rail fares at all - any help?

[TezChi]

Alright, so first off I enjoy travelling by train for leisure to visit attractions etc in the UK as even though I can drive I refuse to use huge motorways and drive long distances etc. However, even though I have been using trains for a number of years now, I still have no idea of the structure of all these different types of tickets. I was wondering if anyone here could be so kind as to help me with some (most likely stupid) questions:

1. Mostly i will be travelling using trains leaving at 7AM - is this peak/off peak or something else? I know Saturdays are off peak as I have bought tickets for them but what about during the week?

Furthermore with this point - using sites like trainline.com etc it always shows offpeak returns for my journeys even when it leaves this early and to return leaving at around 6pm. I was led to beleive that "off peak" was after 9.30am or something like that? So then why does it shows off peak tickets as available?

2. Can I legally/without penalty buy tickets on the train itself when the office is closed etc due to early morning/evening and are they the same prices?

3. Why does trainline/NR Enquiries etc not give me the option of buying "Anytime" returns on some journeys?

Anyway Im sure Ill have more questions and please excuse the nature of them as even though I use trains a fair bit I am a complete novice when it comes to understanding how they work. I just wish they did "Day returns" for long journeys as well, it would make things a lot easier, LOL!

 

[Mojo]

1. Mostly i will be travelling using trains leaving at 7AM - is this peak/off peak or something else? I know Saturdays are off peak as I have bought tickets for them but what about during the week?

There is no national "off-peak" time and there is no such thing as a peak/off-peak train. The times your ticket is valid depends on the restriction code with the ticket. You can obtain restrictions through National Rail Enquiries, by asking at a ticket office, or we could help you as well!

Furthermore with this point - using sites like trainline.com etc it always shows offpeak returns for my journeys even when it leaves this early and to return leaving at around 6pm. I was led to beleive that "off peak" was after 9.30am or something like that? So then why does it shows off peak tickets as available?

See above.

2. Can I legally/without penalty buy tickets on the train itself when the office is closed etc due to early morning/evening and are they the same prices?

Assuming there is no functioning self-service ticket machine at the station, yes.

3. Why does trainline/NR Enquiries etc not give me the option of buying "Anytime" returns on some journeys?

Because either the Off-peak ticket is valid at any time, or because the times you have input the Off-peak ticket is the cheapest ticket that is valid

I just wish they did "Day returns" for long journeys as well, it would make things a lot easier, LOL!

If you are planning on doing a long distance journey and returning the same day, it is almost always cheaper to split your tickets into shorter components where the train stops. For example Birmingham to Sheffield only an Anytime return is available, but the train also stops at Derby, so you can buy a Birmingham to Derby Anytime Day return and a Derby to Sheffield Anytime Day return for less than the cost of an Anytime return.

 

[Dolive22]

On 1. What is on and off peak varies depending on where you are. On the Thameslink line we even have an evening peak.

There are meant to be standardised names of tickets, advance (restricted to one train), anytime (any time on a day when the ticket is valid for that journey, which is mainly an issue on returns), off peak (anything locally designated as offpeak).

2. You must pay at the earliest opportunity, which could be an open ticket office, a ticket machine, a permit to travel machine (although that is only valid until your next opportunity to pay) or on the train. If no other opportunity presents itself you should pay at the station at the end of your journey. What price you have to pay onboard is a matter of debate. If in doubt you might want to order your tickets to be delivered to your house free by first class post.

3. The national rail enquiries journey planner lets me buy any ticket I want, from advance (assuming it is available) to offpeak, and anytime if there is a peak. It isn't always very clear whether you are buying a single or a return though.

Your best bet for these questions is to wait for Yorkie to come along, he is pretty much THE source on ticketing.

 

[moonrakerz]

Furthermore with this point - using sites like trainline.com etc

........another way to save money:- don't buy tickets from trainline.com - they charge commission. Use the Train Operating Companies own sites, which also (sometimes) have special offers, either to use on their trains or others, providing you buy the tickets from them.

 

[Max]

........another way to save money:- don't buy tickets from trainline.com - they charge commission. Use the Train Operating Companies own sites, which also (sometimes) have special offers, either to use on their trains or others, providing you buy the tickets from them.

Agreed. The East Coast website is probably the best for finding the cheapest fares, as it will list a large number of services (potentially for the whole day!) on one screen and then show the cheapest fare for each service. It also provides easy access to cheaper (but slower) routes via the options on the left hand side when times have been loaded.

 

[Edvid]

Or indeed any other TOC site which uses Avantix WebTIS: Chiltern Railways, East Coast (as mentioned above), London Midland, Southeastern and Southern.

 

[323235]

On 1. What is on and off peak varies depending on where you are. On the Thameslink line we even have an evening peak.

It's hard to say that it's wholly down to where you live when talking about Off Peak, as I can buy a Poynton-Newcastle Off Peak Return for any train after 0500,can buy a Off Peak Return to Preston, which is valid on any train, yet I can only buy an Off Peak Return to Wolverhampton, if I want to use it on trains timed to depart at or after 0930.

Similarly I can buy an Off Peak Day Return to Manchester, if im travelling on a train at or after 0930,yet if Im going to Stoke On Trent it carries a B3 restriction, so I can travel on any train timed to depart at or after 0930.

Generally speaking id say it all really depends on the individual ticket Restriction Code and which train company sets the flow rather than where you live.

 

[Dolive22]

323235, where I live we have peak to 9.30 and an afternoon peak, which doesn't seem to exist lots of other places. Some don't even have peak.

 

[yorkie]

On 1. What is on and off peak varies depending on where you are. On the Thameslink line we even have an evening peak.

Almost, but not quite. There are plenty of 'Off Peak' tickets that can be used on Thameslink route services in the evening peak. It's not the route itself that restricts travel, or the trains, but the restrictions associated with the ticket.

While it may be true that tickets for travel wholly within certain lines or areas have the same peak restrictions, this isn't even true for Thameslink. There is a 'zonal system' (see their site) that they apply to tickets that are set by them. For example, Brighton to Bedford Off Peak Day Return is valid at any time after 10am outward, and any time return. No evening peak restriction. That fare is set by FCC.

TezChi - I'd need to know which journey(s) you have in mind before commenting. Without knowing what journeys we're talking about it really is impossible to say (unless you want an essay on all the various possibilities - which are very numerous).

 

[TezChi]

Hey, sorry I didn't really reply to this thread, as I have had most of my problems solved by a guy I met who worked for British Rail!

There is only one journey I am still a bit unsure of which is something I am sure someone here would be able to help with. I have done this journey a few times before always with different ticket types and it always has me thinking of exactly what is available: Its a long distance trek...

going from LEOMINSTER to BLACKPOOL (SOUTH OR PLEASURE BEACH).

In order to reach the destination I have before used the 7.01 train from Leominster, and I know on a saturday an off peak return is fine, but what about other times and days? I already know the prices of the tickets etc, I was just wondering about which types I could use and a little advice etc.

Also LEO ticket office would not be open when I boarded the train (it never has been in the past) so i take it buying on the train is legal and ok?

Thanks for all the other replies by the way - most appreciated (as you can tell I am a novice with all things train related, but willing to learn!)


edit - Apart from that my most popular journey with a longer distance would be again from LEOMINSTER, this time to STOKE ON TRENT. This would be a more regular journey (as the blackpool one is just for 'fun' but more...harder to work out, in a way) Again all trains are going to be at 7am.

 

[yorkie]

There is only one journey I am still a bit unsure of which is something I am sure someone here would be able to help with. I have done this journey a few times before always with different ticket types and it always has me thinking of exactly what is available: Its a long distance trek...

going from LEOMINSTER to BLACKPOOL (SOUTH OR PLEASURE BEACH).

SVR - OFF-PEAK R VWC
00000 - ANY PERMITTED
1 Adult @£ 48.40 = £ 48.40

Restriction : 2T
Outward Travel
By any train except those
timed to depart
Mondays-Fridays before 0415.

Return Travel
By any train except those
timed to depart
Mondays-Fridays before 0415.

In order to reach the destination I have before used the 7.01 train from Leominster, and I know on a saturday an off peak return is fine, but what about other times and days? I already know the prices of the tickets etc, I was just wondering about which types I could use and a little advice etc.

That's fine, the ticket is valid after 4:15am.

Also LEO ticket office would not be open when I boarded the train (it never has been in the past) so i take it buying on the train is legal and ok?

Yes.

Thanks for all the other replies by the way - most appreciated (as you can tell I am a novice with all things train related, but willing to learn!)


edit - Apart from that my most popular journey with a longer distance would be again from LEOMINSTER, this time to STOKE ON TRENT. This would be a more regular journey (as the blackpool one is just for 'fun' but more...harder to work out, in a way) Again all trains are going to be at 7am.

No problem And 7am is fine for that journey too.

SVR - OFF-PEAK R ATW
00000 - ANY PERMITTED
1 Adult @£ 29.30 = £ 29.30

Restriction : 8A
Available as listed below on
any day.

OUTWARD TRAVEL
Valid on any train.


RETURN TRAVEL
Valid on any train.

 

[TezChi]

Wow thanks so much, that's very heplful indeed! (I had NO idea about the monday-friday been alright with off peaks if they are after 4.15 etc)

Again thanks a lot.

 

[yorkie]

You're welcome

Wow thanks so much, that's very heplful indeed! (I had NO idea about the monday-friday been alright with off peaks if they are after 4.15 etc)

Again thanks a lot.

It depends on the ticket.

The tickets now known as "Off Peak" (without the Super or Day prefixes or suffixes) used to be known as "Savers". All Savers that did not involve travel to the London area (London area including places nearby such as Milton Keynes, Reading, Stevenage, etc) were unrestricted. It is only since privitisation that restrictions have been introduced on these products which are supposedly legally protected. Restrictions such as "After 0415" are just there to justify (in the minds of the TOCs) the name "Off Peak".

It is unfortunate that groups such as Passenger Focus demanded "simplification" without ensuring that it was done properly, sensibly, and not to the detriment of passengers. By allowing a product that was, under BR, unrestricted, to be given a name that makes it appear that it is restricted when many are not, was disgraceful and merely allowed the TOCs to justify the introduction of even more restrictions.

Any journey that you do has to be checked for restrictions. There are literally hundreds of restrictions. A guard can be checking Off Peak tickets on a particular train at 'peak' time and some of them will be valid and some of them won't be valid.

In theory any member of rail staff can look up the restriction codes. But it is not uncommon for them to make a guess and get it wrong. It would take forever to look them all up when checking tickets.

 

[barrykas]

You're welcome
In theory any member of rail staff can look up the restriction codes. But it is not uncommon for them to make a guess and get it wrong. It would take forever to look them all up when checking tickets.

A side effect of that being that most staff tend to "assume" that a certain restriction applies (usually the venerable 9I, formerly 9A, for Off-Peak long distance from London, 8A for long distance routes avoiding London, and 4A in the former Network Southeast area) whereas the actual restriction may be more, or less, generous.

Having said that, I will almost always check restrictions, and if selling a restricted ticket at a restricted time, endorse it with the first train it's valid on.

Cheers,

Barry