Use Euston-OOC to start western HS line?

[DPWH]

After HS2 is built, will there be any spare capacity from Euston - Old Oak Common, and at Euston?

Because if there were, could this be the start of a Western high speed line: Old Oak Common to Heathrow, and then straight to Bristol, with the expensive London end of the network sorted.

Thoughts?

 

[Ianno87]

No, there'll be 18tph to/from Euston as it is with HS2 (assuming the whole lot gets built, of course). No capacity left for anything else.

 

[The Ham]

After HS2 is build, will there be any spare capacity from Euston-OOC, and at Euston?

Becuase if there were, could this be the start of a Western high speed line. OOC to Heathrow, and then straight to Bristol, with the expensive London end of the network sorted.

Thoughts?

As stated there'll be no spare capacity between Euston and Old Oak Common for extra services.

HOWEVER, OOC could be the starting point for a Western High Speed line westwards.

There would be less need for the trains to go to Central London (a change to HS2 services or GWR or Crossrail services would cater for that with very little time penalty given the frequencies expected in those services). However it could see services extend to somewhere else, maybe even HS1.

An extended box alongside the HS2 box for a further 6 platforms could allow 9tph on each direction if it was the end of the line.

If it wasn't then either 4 and a 6 platform end elsewhere (12tph each way), or have 6 at OOC and 8 elsewhere (15tph) or have 4 and 12 (18tph).

Unless you could build a HS line to skirt around London before heading out of London and have (Say) Bristol to Cambridge services. If you then built another Central London station you could also have Bristol to other Central London and Cambridge to other Central London station. In doing so you need fewer platforms at each location (OOC, Central London and maybe some other North London Hub on the new Cambridge line) however it would create good cross connectivity between the lines whilst providing connections to a range of places in London.

If you could get the North London Hub served by something like Crossrail 2 and a link to HS1 then you could really be onto a winner.

You may however cause the crazy situation where it's quicker to go by train Via OOC when traveling Cambridge Manchester (hopefully not Cambridge Leeds as the line to Cambridge should head North as well).

 

[Ianno87]

As stated there'll be no spare capacity between Euston and Old Oak Common for extra services.



You may however cause the crazy situation where it's quicker to go by train Via OOC when traveling Cambridge Manchester (hopefully not Cambridge Leeds as the line to Cambridge should head North as well).

Even with HS2, Cambridge-Euston-Manchester would be far, far quicker than any other route.

 

[HSTEd]

No capacity on the HS2 alignment from OOC to Euston, but we are in a bit of a pickle due to shortage of platform space.

Now if only the British Library was not where it is, we could fit a lot of platforms there.

 

[coppercapped]

As stated there'll be no spare capacity between Euston and Old Oak Common for extra services.

HOWEVER, OOC could be the starting point for a Western High Speed line westwards.

There would be less need for the trains to go to Central London (a change to HS2 services or GWR or Crossrail services would cater for that with very little time penalty given the frequencies expected in those services). However it could see services extend to somewhere else, maybe even HS1.

SNIPPED

I have never understood this fixation that Crossrail is the answer to everything.

Arriving at Paddington one has the possibility of direct connections using the Circle and Hammersmith and City to the stations down to Hammersmith and around the northern part of the Circle to Baker Street (and its connections), Euston and King's Cross. The presence of the Bakerloo line gives direct access to Queens Park and the stations out to Watford Junction as well as to Charing Cross and Waterloo. Using the District and Circle line platform at Praed Street gives a direct link to Notting Hill Gate, Kensington and Victoria.

All these are significant traffic generators. Not everybody lives or works along the trace of the Central Line.

Cutting the Great Western trains back to Old Oak Common imposes another change for all these passengers. Even with the expected Crossrail frequencies each change adds (as a rule of thumb) about five minutes to a journey on the Underground - what have you against these people?

This is quite apart from having to find space at Old Oak Common for at least ten full length terminating platforms. And road access for taxis, cars and buses. Do you have an idea as to where the North Pole maintenance depot could be re-located?

 

[edwin_m]

HS2 relieves to some extent all three main line to the north, making a significant difference to travel to Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Leeds, Tyneside, Glasgow and Edinburgh as well as various smaller places. Even then people are saying it may not justify the cost. So I think it would be difficult to make a case for a high speed line westward, that relieves only one main line and only makes a comparable difference to Bristol and Cardiff (also plus smaller places). This is even more true if it doesn't terminate in central London.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Do we really need a high speed line out West?

 

[HSTEd]

The only way a westward HS line makes any sense is for it to go out of London to the south, go to Brighton and then track west along the coast.

That relieves multiple main lines and still thrashes the existing time to Exeter, doesn't really help Bristol and SOuth Wales though.

 

[ABB125]

Perhaps, seeing as we are in the Speculative Ideas section, I could suggest a high speed line that comes in from the west to Old Oak Common, and then goes via Paddington to King's Cross/St Pancras and becomes the new high speed line to Cambridge and the north. At OOC there would be multiple grade-separated junctions allowing services such as:

• West-OOC-Euston
• West-OOC-London-Cambridge
• HS2-OOC-Euston
• HS2-OOC-London-Cambridge

There could also be a link from the new tunnel under London to HS1, and the West line could go via Heathrow.

I now await the onslaught of reasons why my suggestion is infeasible (which it probably is without large amounts of money being spent).

 

[The Ham]

Perhaps, seeing as we are in the Speculative Ideas section, I could suggest a high speed line that comes in from the west to Old Oak Common, and then goes via Paddington to King's Cross/St Pancras and becomes the new high speed line to Cambridge and the north. At OOC there would be multiple grade-separated junctions allowing services such as:

• West-OOC-Euston
• West-OOC-London-Cambridge
• HS2-OOC-Euston
• HS2-OOC-London-Cambridge

There could also be a link from the new tunnel under London to HS1, and the West line could go via Heathrow.

I now await the onslaught of reasons why my suggestion is infeasible (which it probably is without large amounts of money being spent).

I could see it working, in that it's just mixing the West/HS2 and Euston/Cambridge rather than keeping them separate.

It would require a fairly generous underground junction which would need to work with the 18tph on HS2, so would be fairly costly. It also wouldn't be easy to build once HS2 is up and running to any extent.

Not impossible, certainly, but not easy and not cheap. This was why I suggested then as a separate system rather than trying to interwork them.

Changing trains with 10 platforms could be fairly quick with moving walkways moving you along under/over the platforms maybe 2 or 4 platforms at a time. If there were 2, at 100m from each end of the platforms then they'd be very little walking required.

I've problem with interworking HS2 services would be who would lose their Euston services to gain the Cambridge service?

I would suggest that it would be an easier sell to ask people to change and keep the existing HS2 services as they are.

 

[tasky]

For a western high-speed line I often see 'straight to Brighton from London and then snake west towards Exeter taking in the cities along the coast' - but surely Brighton is too far east for this? Or would it thrash the existing lines in journey times to somewhere like Southampton, Exeter anyway even if it was going via Brighton?

Such a line would probably help South Wales and Bristol in the sense that taking Cornwall, Exeter services off the GWML would relieve capacity. But on the GWML perhaps there is also a case for a more piecemeal approach, using high-speed bypasses

 

[tasky]

If there were a west/south facing high-speed rail line, where would the terminus be in London? Am I right in thinking none of the existing termini really have much space for expansion?

 

[Ethano92]

Can I ask if it's the platform capacity at Euston that's the limiting factor for the number of HS2 trains between itself and OOC. Or more generally are we building a line (maybe) that will be running at capacity from day 1?

 

[edwin_m]

Can I ask if it's the platform capacity at Euston that's the limiting factor for the number of HS2 trains between itself and OOC. Or more generally are we building a line (maybe) that will be running at capacity from day 1?

There are proposed to be 18 trains per hour between Euston and OOC (and on to the junctions near Birmingham) and it's hard to imagine it taking many more. Not surprisingly the new Euston station (in its final version at Phase 2b) is sized to handle the same number of trains without unnecessary spend and demolition for extra platforms.

 

[urpert]

If there were a west/south facing high-speed rail line, where would the terminus be in London? Am I right in thinking none of the existing termini really have much space for expansion?

Until a couple of years ago I’d have said Waterloo International...

 

[randyrippley]

If there were a west/south facing high-speed rail line, where would the terminus be in London? Am I right in thinking none of the existing termini really have much space for expansion?

Olympia? From memory loads of room there

 

[HSTEd]

For a western high-speed line I often see 'straight to Brighton from London and then snake west towards Exeter taking in the cities along the coast' - but surely Brighton is too far east for this? Or would it thrash the existing lines in journey times to somewhere like Southampton, Exeter anyway even if it was going via Brighton?

It is only 320km to Exeter along the coast, which is longer than the 250km of the straight line route, but not drastically so.

230km/h top speed trains stopping every 60km manage an average speed of 180km/h or so on HS1.
With a higher or comparable top speed, even a stopping train would be well under 1hr50....

Stopping trains on Shinkansen can run up to 270km/h or higher.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Olympia? From memory loads of room there

Your memory is playing tricks on you. Kensington Olympia has one terminating District Line platform and two through platforms. It's also west of Kensington proper and a considerable distance from central London.

 

[randyrippley]

Your memory is playing tricks on you. Kensington Olympia has one terminating District Line platform and two through platforms. It's also west of Kensington proper and a considerable distance from central London.

Maybe my memory is...........but I thought there were four through tracks plus BR platforms unused since motorail was abandoned?

 

[tasky]

Olympia? From memory loads of room there

Interesting idea, but it things did fit would definitely need more onward connections (given it currently just has a very limited district line service and Overground), which might destroy any saving from putting it there

 

[tasky]

I've dug out the terminus options work HS2 did in its early phasing, some interesting stuff here, definitely worth a read in full.

It's on page 47 of this

https://assets.publishing.service.g...16/Vol1_Alternatives_Report_CT-002-000_wm.pdf

King's Cross railway lands was arguably the best non-Euston site for a terminus but now I believe sadly is no longer an option because of development

Also quite interesting that they considered an underground station beneath a royal park (and didn't immediately rule it out, with the option progressing to phase two)

 

[HSTEd]

The Royal Park option will inevitably be adopted if any future high speed rail projects are pursued in the future.
The existing stations are just too small and constrained.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Maybe my memory is...........but I thought there were four through tracks plus BR platforms unused since motorail was abandoned?

There were once four through tracks but one was removed to enable the southbound platform to be widened. The opening shot from this

YouTube Video let's you see the remnants of the original southbound platform with its running line missing.

However, even in its original form, Kensington Olympia did not have the capacity to host a high speed line to anywhere.

 

[Bald Rick]

I maybe missing something here, but what would be the point?

It’s an extra 2 and a half miles from Euston to OOC compared to Paddington to OOC. So why would you want to start a High Speed Line to the west at Euston, when it would take longer? Rather defeats the point, no?

 

[randyrippley]

There were four through tracks but one has been removed to enable the southbound platform to be widened. Now

There were once four through tracks but one was removed to enable the southbound platform to be widened. The opening shot from this

YouTube Video let's you see the remnants of the original southbound platform with its running line missing.

However, even in its original form, Kensington Olympia did not have the capacity to host a high speed line to anywhere.

From that video, and also from Google maps, it looks that by realigning the through tracks, and by using the area of the motorail platforms and shed you could generate space for four north facing bays. If you rerouted the single District track these could be turned into through platforms.
Six decent sized platforms - how many would you need?

 

[The Ham]

From that video, and also from Google maps, it looks that by realigning the through tracks, and by using the area of the motorail platforms and shed you could generate space for four north facing bays. If you rerouted the single District track these could be turned into through platforms.
Six decent sized platforms - how many would you need?

With 30 minute turn around times 6 platforms would give you 12tph. That's fairly good, however fairly optimistic in that is not 30 minutes in a platform but rather from starting to enter the station to then clearing the station upon departure.

Based on 11 platforms for 18tph you'd get 10tph out of 6 platforms.

As suggested up thread if that's 5tph to/from Cambridge (& North) and 5tph to/from OOC (& West) and then (say) 9tph running between the North and the West, via Cambridge, a North London Hub and OOC (West London Hub) then that could provide quite a good network.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I maybe missing something here, but what would be the point?

It’s an extra 2 and a half miles from Euston to OOC compared to Paddington to OOC. So why would you want to start a High Speed Line to the west at Euston, when it would take longer? Rather defeats the point, no?

Agreed.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

From that video, and also from Google maps, it looks that by realigning the through tracks, and by using the area of the motorail platforms and shed you could generate space for four north facing bays. If you rerouted the single District track these could be turned into through platforms.
Six decent sized platforms - how many would you need?

How many platforms were necessary would obviously depend on the number of trains coming in and out, but as we are only speculating here, no-one can give a reliable answer. Capacity would not be only a matter of platforms. Except at Kensington Olympia, the West London Line is twin track only and is busy with both London Overground and freight trains.

 

[tasky]

The Royal Park option will inevitably be adopted if any future high speed rail projects are pursued in the future.
The existing stations are just too small and constrained.

This seems likely, except for a possible eastern north-bound line - where Stratford might be in the running? It's well connected, and the centre of London has certainly moved eastwards in recent years. I know Greengauge was keen on it as a terminus for such a line in their Beyond HS2 report.

For a western line, I do wonder where the best Royal Park option would be. The north east corner of Hyde Park at Marble Arch might make sense? For connectivity there's the potential to put a Crossrail station there, as the line passes underneath. It could also have interchange with Marble March Central Line station.

The area around Marble Arch is pretty horrible and needs doing anyway, and the arch could potentially be re-sited or reorientated and something made of it. It opens onto Oxford Street which is a major destination. There's also an underground carpark somewhere there could could be replaced, and it might be easier to convince the public to 'replace the car park with a station' than simply 'dig up a park and put something new underneath it'.

Interesting to know what other ideas people have for park locations.