Western Region unusual SO working in 1952

[Czesziafan]

I have a long standing interest in the history of the WR. I have recently been made aware of an unusual SO working in about 1952, which I had not previously heard of.

The working was train reporting number 573, the 08.10 Paignton - Manchester (Victoria!).

What I would be interested to know is what route did this train take in order to reach Man Vic, and why did it terminate there rather than London Road where everything else off the WR to Manchester went?

Does anyone have any information please?

 

[john prytherch]

I think it went via Wrexham General.

John Prytherch.

 

[Czesziafan]

So perhaps then via Chester and the CLC line via Northwich? It could have served mid-Cheshire with a direct service to / from Torbay.

 

[oldman]

It can be found in Timetable World (LMS 1947, WR 1949). Southbound Friday night, return Saturday. It can be traced via Stockport, where it stops northbound only, but otherwise non-stop to Shrewsbury.

It may have been to provide more convenient connections from the towns north of Manchester, so that people didn't have to lug their suitcases across town.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Am I right in thinking that the GWR had worked into Manchester Exchange at some point? just wondering if this had somehow migrated into Victoria later? Although Exchange would still have been open at the time of this journey.

 

[Taunton]

Quite a number of services through Stockport ran into Victoria rather than London Road in those times, particularly those continuing onwards to Bolton, Burnley etc. Some trains from London divided at Stockport to serve both main stations. Trains ran through Denton and then the direct line to Droylesden. It was a particular favourite on summer Saturdays to assist those changing onwards to the Lancashire towns - it didn't matter much if Manchester was your final destination. Some of the services would be extended to particular mill towns in the August week when they had their annual holiday shutdown, which the different towns took in turn.

The line from Chester to Warrington was a LNWR/GWR joint line, part of the Birkenhead Joint, and the GWR had running powers onward via Earlestown to Manchester Exchange. These were very little used by GW locomotives for passenger services, but were useful for freight to give access to Manchester. The GW didn't run much passenger to Warrington either, it was almost wholly LMS run. As the Birkenhead Joint was a 50-50 operation between the GW and the LMS, the latter concentrating on the Warrington line meant the GW did more of the service from Chester to Birkenhead, where they had loco depots at both points.

 

[Czesziafan]

Brilliant info and it seems a pity we do not have such through workings today. A complete train of LMS stock behind a Castle or Hall along the Dawlish sea wall must have been a sight to behold.

 

[Bevan Price]

So perhaps then via Chester and the CLC line via Northwich? It could have served mid-Cheshire with a direct service to / from Torbay.

Unlikely. Until Chester Northgate closed, I think that trains from Chester (General) could only reach the CLC lines by reversing at Mickle Trafford Jn. The connection there favoured trains from the Northgate direction crossing northbound towards Helsby & Warrington. A new connection was provided to enable CLC trains to be diverted from Chester Northgate to Chester General.

Trains from Chester General passing through Stockport (Edgeley) probably ran via Arpley Jn (Warrington), Lymm and Skelton Jn.

 

[Czesziafan]

Unlikely. Until Chester Northgate closed, I think that trains from Chester (General) could only reach the CLC lines by reversing at Mickle Trafford Jn. The connection there favoured trains from the Northgate direction crossing northbound towards Helsby & Warrington. A new connection was provided to enable CLC trains to be diverted from Chester Northgate to Chester General.

Trains from Chester General passing through Stockport (Edgeley) probably ran via Arpley Jn (Warrington), Lymm and Skelton Jn.

Thanks. That explains it very well. I would assume then that a GW 4-6-0 worked as far as Chester and then a Black 5. Or would the engine change have been at Shrewsbury?

 

[oldman]

The Paignton-Victoria train didn't go via Chester - south of Stockport it followed the normal route via Crewe, though not stopping there.

 

[Czesziafan]

So was it Bristol - Hereford - Shrewsbury - - Crewe, or via Cheltenham and New Street?

 

[Taunton]

So was it Bristol - Hereford - Shrewsbury - - Crewe, or via Cheltenham and New Street?

This service was effectively an advance summer Saturday relief to the principal day train from Plymouth/Paignton to Liverpool/Manchester, which ran all year and which I experienced on multiple occasions in later times north from Taunton. The 1949 timetable linked above (WR Table 165 has it best) shows both this train to Manchester Victoria, and a second relief from Paignton to Manchester Mayfield, the overflow station outside London Road.

Manchester London Road main line platform provision was none too great then, hemmed in between the GCR platforms on the east side and the through ones on the viaduct, as now, but which then were the terminus for the Altrincham electrics. Mayfield, otherwise used for parcels, thus got used as a relief at times of pressure, but it was also a convenience for those from Bury, Rochdale, Bolton etc to be sent round to Victoria. All these services via the Severn Tunnel stopped at Hereford and Shrewsbury.

You would need to be lucky to get a Castle on the relief, more likely a Hall, or if the foreman at Newton Abbot was really pushed by mid-morning Saturday, a Grange.

Locos were changed at Shrewsbury in steam days as the line from there to Crewe was seen as ex-LMS territory.

 

[Czesziafan]

This service was effectively an advance summer Saturday relief to the principal day train from Plymouth/Paignton to Liverpool/Manchester, which ran all year and which I experienced on multiple occasions in later times north from Taunton. The 1949 timetable linked above (WR Table 165 has it best) shows both this train to Manchester Victoria, and a second relief from Paignton to Manchester Mayfield, the overflow station outside London Road.

Manchester London Road main line platform provision was none too great then, hemmed in between the GCR platforms on the east side and the through ones on the viaduct, as now, but which then were the terminus for the Altrincham electrics. Mayfield, otherwise used for parcels, thus got used as a relief at times of pressure, but it was also a convenience for those from Bury, Rochdale, Bolton etc to be sent round to Victoria. All these services via the Severn Tunnel stopped at Hereford and Shrewsbury.

You would need to be lucky to get a Castle on the relief, more likely a Hall, or if the foreman at Newton Abbot was really pushed by mid-morning Saturday, a Grange.

Locos were changed at Shrewsbury in steam days as the line from there to Crewe was seen as ex-LMS territory.

That's wonderful information and detail. Although a little before my time I can well imagine the frenzied activity as WR Yard Masters struggled to find anything that could boil water and had 6 coupled wheels to work all those extras!

 

[oldman]

Crewe-Shrewsbury was LMS-owned with GWR running powers - they had a shed at Gresty Lane in Crewe. Shrewsbury-Hereford was joint LMS-GWR. In the early 60s LMR locomotives worked south of Shrewsbury. The morning Plymouth was used as a running-in turn for ex-works locos; I remember a freshly-painted Stanier pacific going through Shrewsbury on one occasion, and also a Royal Scot.

 

[Taunton]

Just in passing about the main train, the WR didn't have many lodging turns, but this one in steam days was the longest on the system, Newton Abbot to Shrewsbury. Both Newton and Shrewsbury always turned out their best and well-polished Castle for it, which kept to the most senior crews at each shed - the turns gave very substantial mileage payments. Some well known Castles were on these turns long term.

Although the train was Plymouth-Liverpool, the reason a Newton Abbot rather than Laira loco did it was the Newton Castle ran first down to Paignton, picked up the Torbay portion, was first into Newton, and when the Plymouth portion arrived it shunted the Torbay coaches onto the front, changed crews from the local set to the main men, and they set off.

After this huge effort the train then changed locos to an LM one at Shrewsbury, and changed again less than an hour later at Crewe. As mentioned, the morning southbound, leaving Crewe nicely at 10am for the engineer in charge, was a common Crewe Works running in turn to Shrewsbury and back.

I can well imagine the frenzied activity as WR Yard Masters struggled to find anything that could boil water and had 6 coupled wheels to work all those extras!

Carried on into diesel days. We used to see the results passing Taunton by lunchtime. As the August Saturday morning wore on, and before all the inbounds turned up, the Foremen at Laira and Newton would use up all their Westerns, Warships and Hymeks, then would be down to the D600 Warships (underpowered and unreliable but a nice ride on their 6-wheel bogies), and then that absolute nadir, 2 x D6300 in multiple, where they would likely hide from the men signing on and tell the booking-on clerk to let them know ...

 

[Cowley]

Just in passing about the main train, the WR didn't have many lodging turns, but this one in steam days was the longest on the system, Newton Abbot to Shrewsbury. Both Newton and Shrewsbury always turned out their best and well-polished Castle for it, which kept to the most senior crews at each shed - the turns gave very substantial mileage payments. Some well known Castles were on these turns long term.

Although the train was Plymouth-Liverpool, the reason a Newton Abbot rather than Laira loco did it was the Newton Castle ran first down to Paignton, picked up the Torbay portion, was first into Newton, and when the Plymouth portion arrived it shunted the Torbay coaches onto the front, changed crews from the local set to the main men, and they set off.

After this huge effort the train then changed locos to an LM one at Shrewsbury, and changed again less than an hour later at Crewe. As mentioned, the morning southbound, leaving Crewe nicely at 10am for the engineer in charge, was a common Crewe Works running in turn to Shrewsbury and back.


Carried on into diesel days. We used to see the results passing Taunton by lunchtime. As the August Saturday morning wore on, and before all the inbounds turned up, the Foremen at Laira and Newton would use up all their Westerns, Warships and Hymeks, then would be down to the D600 Warships (underpowered and unreliable but a nice ride on their 6-wheel bogies), and then that absolute nadir, 2 x D6300 in multiple, where they would likely hide from the men signing on and tell the booking-on clerk to let them know ...

I remember you saying a while back about being on a train somewhere around Shrewsbury (or was it Chester?) and the Warship hauling you running out of fuel. Was that on this service?