WCML New Rolling Stock Discussion

[pt_mad]

When is news of the new trains likely to be released?

 

[krus_aragon]

When is news of the new trains likely to be released?

When the standstill period after the franchise announcement is over (in case there are any legal objections to the DfT's decision). It's typically ten days.

 

[edwin_m]

When the standstill period after the franchise announcement is over (in case there are any legal objections to the DfT's decision). It's typically ten days.

Would it automatically be so soon? The EMR Hitachi deal wasn't announced until some months after the franchise decision (presumably when procurement was complete) and we still don't know for certain what their solution is for regional stock (have 360s even been confirmed?).

 

[krus_aragon]

Would it automatically be so soon? The EMR Hitachi deal wasn't announced until some months after the franchise decision (presumably when procurement was complete) and we still don't know for certain what their solution is for regional stock (have 360s even been confirmed?).

Not necessarily, but it won't be before the end of the standstill period.

 

[Nym]

AT300s are not designed for tilting and Pendolinos are not designed as bi-modes - even if a new tilting bi-mode design was practical for the UK, you'd never get a sensible price for such a small order of uniquely complex trains.

The traction power distribution system in the 390s actually lends itself reasonably well to conversion to "Bi Mode", but what it doesn't lend itself to is a Bi Mode where one can shut down random engines and still retain full distributed traction. The issue would be if one were converting an existing unit, everything is currently rather well distributed.
However, with a blank(ish) slate for equipment placement, it could be reasonably well achieved

 

[Energy]

The traction power distribution system in the 390s actually lends itself reasonably well to conversion to "Bi Mode", but what it doesn't lend itself to is a Bi Mode where one can shut down random engines and still retain full distributed traction. The issue would be if one were converting an existing unit, everything is currently rather well distributed.
However, with a blank(ish) slate for equipment placement, it could be reasonably well achieved

Interesting, I think that there is a high chance Alstom could get this order for emus and bmus if they can offer an updated 390 which passes modern safety requirements

 

[Energy]

what I'm interested in is the interior as they would want the same as the refurbished 390s but fire restrictions limit the seats on new trains, but not refurbishments.

 

[Bletchleyite]

what I'm interested in is the interior as they would want the same as the refurbished 390s but fire restrictions limit the seats on new trains, but not refurbishments.

I'm still betting 5-car (26m) 80x with Fainsa Sophia seats.

To be fair, that is a better package overall than a Voyager even if I might not be a fan of the latter component.

What would be nice would be if they could get the Grammer IC3000 or the FISA LEAN certified for 125mph in new stock but I'm doubting it...

 

[Energy]

I'm still betting 5-car (26m) 80x with Fainsa Sophia seats.

To be fair, that is a better package overall than a Voyager even if I might not be a fan of the latter component.

What would be nice would be if they could get the Grammer IC3000 or the FISA LEAN certified for 125mph in new stock but I'm doubting it...

Didn't GWR put Grammer IC300s in its HSTs? If so then they are already certified for 125mph, not sure if in new stock though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Didn't GWR put Grammer IC300s in its HSTs? If so then they are already certified for 125mph, not sure if in new stock though.

Yes, GWR HSTs have that seat.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I didn't think double sets ever went past Chester, i.e. only front 5 go forward?

Flint has 10-car stop boards beyond the platform ends.
9-car Pendolinos also stopped there when they were loco-hauled west of Crewe.
There are occasional long formations on TfW's loco-hauled trains as well (on rugby days).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm not really a betting man However I do think those are very likely outcomes, as they would allow the stock to go to GWR/LNER for added capacity once the HS2 classic compatible stock replaces it.

I think any West Coast bi-modes will stay running via Rugby after HS2 opens, as there is no plan to run Chester/North Wales/Shrewsbury services via HS2.

 

[Energy]

I think any West Coast bi-modes will stay running via Rugby after HS2 opens, as there is no plan to run Chester/North Wales/Shrewsbury services via HS2.

I believe you are correct, the WCML isn't closing when HS2 is done, instead it will continue to run services like it does now, they will just stop more as fast services between major cities goes in HS2. HS2 will also allow them to do more upgrades to the WCML like ETCS as it will mean that lots of passengers will be moved of the WCML or they can run some WCML trains on HS2 while upgrade work is done.

 

[The Ham]

I believe you are correct, the WCML isn't closing when HS2 is done, instead it will continue to run services like it does now, they will just stop more as fast services between major cities goes in HS2. HS2 will also allow them to do more upgrades to the WCML like ETCS as it will mean that lots of passengers will be moved of the WCML or they can run some WCML trains on HS2 while upgrade work is done.

Indeed, there's some who state things like "Coventry will have its Intercity services slashed after HS2 opens" forgetting that it's 60-90 minutes from London and so what's the big advantage of having Intercity services compared to anything else?

Plenty of other places (i.e. Southampton) are comparable journey times with no intercity services. Yes the 390's are nice, but given the choice for an hour long run few are going to be upset if a 444 (assuming it had OHLE capability) provided the service from Coventry to London rather than a 390. In fact there would be a fair few who would prefer it if they did.

Of the 7tph between Coventry and Birmingham, assuming 1/3 of the Virgin services are kept in some form that's still 5tph to the next major city. Chances are it'll be more than that and that'll still have a half decent direct service to London as well as the via Northampton services.

Coventry could also see a service from London which then heads to Nuneaton to then run northwards, potentially to Liverpool and/or Scotland and/or Manchester. This would open up a lot more direct, or with one change, journey opportunities than before.

 

[Class 170101]

Alas the 390 design is nearly 20 years old and no longer meets crashworthiness standards, adding further cost.

Would be interested to see where the Class 390s don't meet the crashworthiness standards now. Given how the train that derailed at Grayrigg ended up andonly one life lost I don't believe a Mark III or Mark IV would have had the same result.

 

[Energy]

Indeed, there's some who state things like "Coventry will have its Intercity services slashed after HS2 opens" forgetting that it's 60-90 minutes from London and so what's the big advantage of having Intercity services compared to anything else?

Plenty of other places (i.e. Southampton) are comparable journey times with no intercity services. Yes the 390's are nice, but given the choice for an hour long run few are going to be upset if a 444 (assuming it had OHLE capability) provided the service from Coventry to London rather than a 390. In fact there would be a fair few who would prefer it if they did.

Of the 7tph between Coventry and Birmingham, assuming 1/3 of the Virgin services are kept in some form that's still 5tph to the next major city. Chances are it'll be more than that and that'll still have a half decent direct service to London as well as the via Northampton services.

Coventry could also see a service from London which then heads to Nuneaton to then run northwards, potentially to Liverpool and/or Scotland and/or Manchester. This would open up a lot more direct, or with one change, journey opportunities than before.

Hopefully HS2 will mean that the WCML services can be slower and stop more places to give them direct links to London and elsewhere, sadly right now CrossCountry seems to have control of services which allow people to go between lines without going through London. Bringing it back to this thread, lots of lines (like Coventry to Nuneaton) aren't electrified so hopefully (me just speculating, have no idea if it will actually happen) the new emus will be able to be turned into the new bmus easily, unless Network Rail do some more electrification.

 

[Energy]

Would be interested to see where the Class 390s don't meet the crashworthiness standards now. Given how the train that derailed at Grayrigg ended up andonly one life lost I don't believe a Mark III or Mark IV would have had the same result.

I would compare it to a 800, 801 or 802 as MK3s and MK4s are old trains and don't have to pass the standards required on new trains.

 

[pt_mad]

Did I read further that up that a 221 doesn't quite tilt to the degree a 390 does and subsequently doesn't perform quote as well on a run? Or is it just the acceleration which is inferior to a 390?

Also, does anyone know who the rolling stock leasing company is likely to be for this new stock? If, for example, it's to be the same ROSCO as the 390s, how will the stock have guaranteed use beyond the end of the West Coast Partnership?
Or is the idea that if the stock is non tilt, it could be transferred to other franchises such as the East Coast operation after HS2? Tilting stock obviously couldn't, unless tilt was removed such as on the 220s.

 

[pt_mad]

Would be interested to see where the Class 390s don't meet the crashworthiness standards now. Given how the train that derailed at Grayrigg ended up andonly one life lost I don't believe a Mark III or Mark IV would have had the same result.

I don't suppose a 170 would meet current standards now although the realities of running the unit in everyday use I would assume are that it is a very safe and reliable unit. Standards do move on pretty quick though and the motor industry is no different.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did I read further that up that a 221 doesn't quite tilt to the degree a 390 does and subsequently doesn't perform quote as well on a run?

Correct, this is why the timing loads on RTT for VTWC are almost 100% accurate as it matters which is put on which diagram. There are some places where the limits are 125 for Pendolinos, 115 for Voyagers and 100-110 for others, for instance.

 

[driver_m]

Flint has 10-car stop boards beyond the platform ends.
9-car Pendolinos also stopped there when they were loco-hauled west of Crewe.
There are occasional long formations on TfW's loco-hauled trains as well (on rugby days).

The 10 car board was removed, as the sets clearly didn’t fit on the platforms. The pendo was diagrammed to the 0910/1358 job so wouldn’t have stopped at Flint, it still doesn’t to this day.

 

[Class 170101]

I don't suppose a 170 would meet current standards now although the realities of running the unit in everyday use I would assume are that it is a very safe and reliable unit. Standards do move on pretty quick though and the motor industry is no different.

I'm not entirely convinced a Class 170 in a Grayrigg style crash would end up as well as the Class 390 though hopefully better than Mark IIIs / IVs

 

[Energy]

Did I read further that up that a 221 doesn't quite tilt to the degree a 390 does and subsequently doesn't perform quote as well on a run? Or is it just the acceleration which is inferior to a 390?

Also, does anyone know who the rolling stock leasing company is likely to be for this new stock? If, for example, it's to be the same ROSCO as the 390s, how will the stock have guaranteed use beyond the end of the West Coast Partnership?
Or is the idea that if the stock is non tilt, it could be transferred to other franchises such as the East Coast operation after HS2? Tilting stock obviously couldn't, unless tilt was removed such as on the 220s.

a) the 220s didn't have tilt removed, they were delivered without tilt but do share the same narrow bodies required on tilting trains to save cost.
b) you can use tilting trains where tilt is not required, XC do it all the time as they just have tilt turned of on their super voyagers permanently as it isn't required where they run. I believe XC did remove it as it was extra weight but when it was used when Virgin CrossCountry was a thing and the tilt wasnt removed and was enabled, they would still run to Penzance.
c) the super voyagers can tilt at an angle of up to 6° while the pendolinos can tilt up to an angle of 8°.

 

[driver_m]

Been told that XC 221s have had some physical tilt equipment removed and that their sets are now a bit different to ours. I’ve not been in an XC 221 for a long time so I’d be interested to see how one gets setup now and if the TMS is different as a result. Obvs an XC staffer will be able to answer this better.

 

[Westcoast221]

1610 ex Euston Friday only...
Whilst stopped at Chester the doors of the rear 2 vehicles of the rear Class 221 are locked out of use and unlocked again at Rhyl, on the return 2020 from Bangor the rear set is locked out of use.

Interesting. I presume that service still shunts into Belmont tunnel when its a double unit? If so, how does the driver change ends to take it onto the up main?

 

[driver_m]

Interesting. I presume that service still shunts into Belmont tunnel when its a double unit? If so, how does the driver change ends to take it onto the up main?

it will be double manned.

 

[edwin_m]

Would be interested to see where the Class 390s don't meet the crashworthiness standards now. Given how the train that derailed at Grayrigg ended up andonly one life lost I don't believe a Mark III or Mark IV would have had the same result.

Although dramatic the 390 at Grayrigg didn't hit anything solid so was decelerated relatively gently by friction with the ground. There have been plenty of high-speed accidents with Mk3s where the same applied and the bodyshell protected the passenger just as well - essentially the amount of damage is down to luck. The report actually states that the end of body "crumple zones" weren't relevant because that wasn't the mode of collision they were designed to mitigate. I've never managed to find out whether damage to those crumple zones was part of the reason the unit was mostly scrapped.

On the other hand if a 390 had been involved at Great Heck I'm not convinced it would have survived much better than the IC225 set. Ladbroke Grove is more questionable as that generation of welded aluminium bodyshells such as the 166 tend to split along the welds. 170s and Electrostars are bolted instead and Hitachi uses a different welding technique. The very fact that none of these classes has been involved in a serious collision illustrates how rare these now are, and therefore that crashworthiness standards actually don't have much effect on reducing fatilities.

 

[Westcoast221]

it will be double manned.

Ahh that explains it, thanks

 

[EE Andy b1]

Did I read further that up that a 221 doesn't quite tilt to the degree a 390 does and subsequently doesn't perform quote as well on a run? Or is it just the acceleration which is inferior to a 390?

Class 221 has 6 degrees of tilt, the Class 390 has 8 degrees of tilt, that's why there are several differential EPS speed restrictions.
The 221 with all 5 engines working initially will accelerate a bit quicker than a 390, but then the 390 would soon overtake and accelerate much quicker upto top speed of 125 mph. Approx. 3m30s 0-125 mph for a Pendolino.
The 390 will also coast better than a 221 which soon starts to drop speed so needs power applied more constantly.
Both have done a pretty good job though for the last 17 years or so.

 

[pt_mad]

I wonder what implications, if any, HS2 had on the choice of new rolling stock for the 221 replacement within the West Coast Partnership?

I.e. if it were that the stock is to be non-tilt, should it and would it have been tilting stock if it was known HS2 was to be under review?