Govia Thameslink Railway. Next franchise?

[387star]

Pretty sure the contract expires next year unless it has been extended..

What would you like to see from a new franchise ? (Of course the new franchise may well be cut in two or three)

Class 313 replacement and class 455 replacement is surely a given
Power points on the older 377s and 171s likewise? Perhaps new no modes for the diesel services

A decent livery for the grey 700s and 717s?

Longer trains in the coastway ?

With Thameslink settling down into well oiled machine I guess it should be plain sailing for the next operator

 

[Aictos]

WiFi on all Class 700s plus power sockets as per Class 717 specification.

Class 313 replacement on the Southern with 9 Class 717s but fitted with toilets, that is enough to send the Class 313s to Booths but again it would be better to order 12 to take into account fleet maintenance needs.

If platform extensions are not possible then SDO should be considered.

The Class 455s if they run mainly as 8 cars at the moment to replace them with another order of 8 car Class 700s.

23 Class 700s would be enough to replace every Class 455 however it would be wise to round it off to 27 Class 700s to take into account fleet maintenance etc, it would mean every service running as a 8 car though.

That would mean Southern only running Class 377s, Class 387s, Class 717s, Class 700s and Class 171s.

A add on order of eight 12 car Class 700s for Thameslink to bolster the Mainline services.

Improved station WiFi and every station fitted with a Gateline to be manned from first to last train and yes this probably means a 24/7 staff presence.

Luton station to be demolished and rebuilt in stages with full step free access with lifts ie work on platforms 1/2 first then Platforms 3/4 then Platform 5 last.

 

[sussexbythesea]

Rumours are that the franchise will be split back into SN (& GX) and TL/GN like it used to be before it was merged?

Potentially Great Northern may be split into LNER (mainline stuff) and TFL (Moorgate stuff), leaving Thameslink and Southern as standalone operators.

313/455 replacement must be a given, i would suggest that a new fleet of suburban stock is ordered (Aventra?) for London Metro services, with enough extra rolling stock to both a) replace all 455 units and b) allow the 377/3s (3 car units) to return to the Coastways, in turn displacing 313s.

Doubt the 171s will be replaced unless Uckfield/Marshlink is electrified or Bi-modes/Battery/Hydrogen trains suitable for third rail become reliable (possibly the 769, although that would be a downgrade in terms of comfort)

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Pretty sure the contract expires next year unless it has been extended..

What would you like to see from a new franchise ? (Of course the new franchise may well be cut in two or three)

Class 313 replacement and class 455 replacement is surely a given
Power points on the older 377s and 171s likewise? Perhaps new no modes for the diesel services

A decent livery for the grey 700s and 717s?

Longer trains in the coastway ?

With Thameslink settling down into well oiled machine I guess it should be plain sailing for the next operator

Expires September 2021 as planned from the start. Likely to split into Thameslink franchise, LNER for GN Mainline services, London Overground (for GN Moorgate Services) and Southern franchise. 313 and 455 are probably an obvious choice to be replaced maybe Southern should take 707’s. Back in 2017 Grayling was in talks about TfL taking some Southern Metro Services.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Considering 700s operate both Thameslink-branded and Great Northern-branded services, if the two were split, what would happen to them? Would they be split across the different operators, or kept by just one?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Considering 700s operate both Thameslink-branded and Great Northern-branded services, if the two were split, what would happen to them? Would they be split across the different operators, or kept by just one?

GN uses 717’s and Electrostars but Thameslink ONLY use 700’s.

 

[NoMorePacers]

GN uses 717’s and Electrostars but Thameslink ONLY use 700’s.

I'm thinking about the slow King's Cross-Cambridge/Cambridge North services, which use 700s (exclusively I believe - 387s only do the fast services to Kings Lynn), and I presume are operated as Great Northern services.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I'm thinking about the slow King's Cross-Cambridge/Cambridge North services, which use 700s (exclusively I believe - 387s only do the fast services to Kings Lynn), and I presume are operated as Great Northern services.

They are Thameslink NOT Great Northern they will be diverted to Maidstone East in the future. Great Northern does not run ANY 700’s

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'm thinking about the slow King's Cross-Cambridge/Cambridge North services, which use 700s (exclusively I believe - 387s only do the fast services to Kings Lynn), and I presume are operated as Great Northern services.

I'd imagine if it was split that way, then GN would leave the Kings Cross-Cambridge to TL for ease of maintenance

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I'd imagine if it was split that way, then GN would leave the Kings Cross-Cambridge to TL for ease of maintenance

GN only operate from Kings Cross to Ely and Kings Lynn not Cambridge

 

[387star]

Very Strange the rest of the 700s are not being fitted with Wi-Fi when older stock is being fitted

The boring answer being it's not in the contract

 

[387star]

Southern brand going has to be near certain?, or perhaps the name kept with a new livery

 

[AlastairFraser]

GN only operate from Kings Cross to Ely and Kings Lynn not Cambridge

So the Cambridge Flyer via the ECML is nothing to do with them?I'm afraid I don't know the line awfully well,so you're probably right.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

So the Cambridge Flyer via the ECML is nothing to do with them?I'm afraid I don't know the line awfully well,so you're probably right.

All Slow GN services was transferred from GN to Thameslink. No worries but there should be no issues with splitting Thameslink and GN up.

 

[bramling]

So the Cambridge Flyer via the ECML is nothing to do with them?I'm afraid I don't know the line awfully well,so you're probably right.

The 1Txx services from KX to Ely or Kings Lynn are GN, a long with a couple of services at the extremes of the day which don’t go north of Cambridge. All these are formed of 387s.

The 2Cxx KX to Cambridge stopping services are TL. There’s also a few 1Cxx services at the start and end of service which run to KX, these are TL as they are formed of class 700s and provide stock for both the 2Cxx and 9Sxx TL services. These will remain even when (if) all the envisaged services run through the core.

There are a few oddities particularly at weekends. For example on a Sunday there are three Letchworth-KX services branded TL, the first two are formed of a 700/0 but the third is 2x387. Not sure what the long-term plan is for these services. In theory in the long-term they could even be 2x365 if they remain as KX services - although that relies on DOO monitors remaining at places like Hatfield.

 

[JonathanH]

Southern brand going has to be near certain?, or perhaps the name kept with a new livery

Why? The brand is recovering from the DOO dispute - not sure it as toxic now as it was at that time.

Logically, a new metro fleet on Southern to send 377s to the coast makes the most sense but one point is that the 377/3s are used to make up 10-car trains and direct 455 replacement predominantly covers 8-car workings. Ordering enough 5-car units to displace 377/3s to the coast (eg something like 24 3-car diagrams) only releases something like 12 4-car 377s. It might therefore be better to order 8-car units to displace the 455s directly. That then doesn't leave anything sensible for replacing 313s on the coast.

The other point about Southern is whether the Croydon area works allow service expansion. If that is the case it might just be possible to justify a growth build alongside anything else that happens. That might justify complete metro fleet replacement and displaced 377s for longer distance work.

 

[tsr]

In practical and day-to-day terms, the current “Thameslink” services to/from Kings Cross are managed just like GN services. The only real differences lie in the stock used and the information on the CIS/timetable.

This will only change as & when they switch to running through the Core, rumours about which are always prevalent!

In terms of specifications for a new franchise/management contract:
- There have, so far, been conflicting suggestions about Southern - in particular the Metro routes. Perhaps we should expect some surprises with regards the 455s - some people are adamant there will be SWR 455s transferred over, or replacing the poor-quality Southern 455/8 fleet entirely - with all stock given a very deep refurbishment and expanded to the whole Metro network.
- The GX service has been increasingly separated out as a segregated business within the current GTR operations. Further autonomy could occur once the Gatwick Airport station expansion is completed; perhaps running it as an entirely separate business.
- Many seem to think the GN brand is now too toxic to take forward, based on the ongoing driver issues, timetable mishaps and disruptive engineering works affecting services on a rolling basis. There are also quite a lot of rumbles that the brand is too confusing to unfamiliar customers, who expect it to be a service in the north of England, when it’s anything but that! Splitting up GN into local Overground-style Metro services and longer-distance mini-LNER services seems to be the favourite idea, but nobody is quite sure how the Peterborough and Cambridge/Kings Lynn routes would fit into an LNER-style operation. Splitting into 3 parts, or transferring parts to Greater Anglia, have also been amongst the mumblings.
- Rumours and suggestions about Thameslink continue. However, there’s very little consistency.

 

[387star]

In practical and day-to-day terms, the current “Thameslink” services to/from Kings Cross are managed just like GN services. The only real differences lie in the stock used and the information on the CIS/timetable.

This will only change as & when they switch to running through the Core, rumours about which are always prevalent!

In terms of specifications for a new franchise/management contract:
- There have, so far, been conflicting suggestions about Southern - in particular the Metro routes. Perhaps we should expect some surprises with regards the 455s - some people are adamant there will be SWR 455s transferred over, or replacing the poor-quality Southern 455/8 fleet entirely - with all stock given a very deep refurbishment and expanded to the whole Metro network.
- The GX service has been increasingly separated out as a segregated business within the current GTR operations. Further autonomy could occur once the Gatwick Airport station expansion is completed; perhaps running it as an entirely separate business.
- Many seem to think the GN brand is now too toxic to take forward, based on the ongoing driver issues, timetable mishaps and disruptive engineering works affecting services on a rolling basis. There are also quite a lot of rumbles that the brand is too confusing to unfamiliar customers, who expect it to be a service in the north of England, when it’s anything but that! Splitting up GN into local Overground-style Metro services and longer-distance mini-LNER services seems to be the favourite idea, but nobody is quite sure how the Peterborough and Cambridge/Kings Lynn routes would fit into an LNER-style operation. Splitting into 3 parts, or transferring parts to Greater Anglia, have also been amongst the mumblings.
- Rumours and suggestions about Thameslink continue. However, there’s very little consistency.

I'd hope Gatwick Express will be improved with an interior suited to an express train.

What's to happen in December with Thameslink? Will Peterborough to Horsham run on weekends? Will the extra Littlehampton be added ? Peak sevenoaks to welwyn?

Ashford to Cambridge unlikely ?

Those at Ashford Depot presumably passing to Sevenoaks every day

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Yes the routes should be adding weekend services. Southern will no doubt lose the management of certain BML stations and potentially on the Horsham branch. I would also not against them transferring metro services to London Overground but I doubt that will ever happen logistically.

Refresh of the 377s would be desirable as compared to SWR they are appalling.

 

[MatthewRead]

Yes the routes should be adding weekend services. Southern will no doubt lose the management of certain BML stations and potentially on the Horsham branch. I would also not against them transferring metro services to London Overground but I doubt that will ever happen logistically.

Refresh of the 377s would be desirable as compared to SWR they are appalling.

Agreed couldn't put it better myself those seats in those electrostars are awful and should be replaced.

 

[CaledonianBlue]

In practical and day-to-day terms, the current “Thameslink” services to/from Kings Cross are managed just like GN services. The only real differences lie in the stock used and the information on the CIS/timetable.

This will only change as & when they switch to running through the Core, rumours about which are always prevalent!

In terms of specifications for a new franchise/management contract:
- There have, so far, been conflicting suggestions about Southern - in particular the Metro routes. Perhaps we should expect some surprises with regards the 455s - some people are adamant there will be SWR 455s transferred over, or replacing the poor-quality Southern 455/8 fleet entirely - with all stock given a very deep refurbishment and expanded to the whole Metro network.
- The GX service has been increasingly separated out as a segregated business within the current GTR operations. Further autonomy could occur once the Gatwick Airport station expansion is completed; perhaps running it as an entirely separate business.
- Many seem to think the GN brand is now too toxic to take forward, based on the ongoing driver issues, timetable mishaps and disruptive engineering works affecting services on a rolling basis. There are also quite a lot of rumbles that the brand is too confusing to unfamiliar customers, who expect it to be a service in the north of England, when it’s anything but that! Splitting up GN into local Overground-style Metro services and longer-distance mini-LNER services seems to be the favourite idea, but nobody is quite sure how the Peterborough and Cambridge/Kings Lynn routes would fit into an LNER-style operation. Splitting into 3 parts, or transferring parts to Greater Anglia, have also been amongst the mumblings.
- Rumours and suggestions about Thameslink continue. However, there’s very little consistency.

I don't know anything about rumours or rumblings but can you explain why GN brand would be considered toxic rather than Thameslink?

 

[LLivery]

If SN Suburbans get more 455s I think I'd go mad. I don't hate them, but they've had their day.

What I would do:

* GN Suburbans to LO
* GN Cambridge, King's Lynn and Peterborough to Greater Anglia (like WAGN days)
* Keep GatEx with Southern
* Merge Southern and Southeastern
* TL, SN and SE Suburbans - Centro style working with TfL
* Thameslink stand alone

Reasoning:
*GN Suburbans are quite easy to split, and TfL wants them. As long as they don't try something stupid like getting rid of the new fleet, I'm all for it.
*GN to GA is an easy operation to take. I can't see why LNER should take it - end up being the forgotten route.
*GatEx with Southern allows quick flexibility when needed.
*Merging SE and SN - tbh I struggle to justify it.
*Suburbans and TL operation with TfL would allow integration without totally splitting operations. No excuse not to put TL on the Tube Map and it would improve services for us South Londoners. SWR Suburbans should also join the "alliance".
*Thameslink worked stand alone before.

 

[NoMorePacers]

*GN to GA is an easy operation to take. I can't see why LNER should take it - end up being the forgotten route.

If the aforementioned GA and especially GWR can run intercity and stopping services, then I don't see why LNER can't do the same.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

If the aforementioned GA and especially GWR can run intercity and stopping services, then I don't see why LNER can't do the same.

Plus LNER seems like the obvious option seen as they already run services from Kings Cross where as GA does not. It could mean a more integrated service, similar to GWR with InterCity and Stopping services.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

If SN Suburbans get more 455s I think I'd go mad. I don't hate them, but they've had their day.

What I would do:

* GN Suburbans to LO
* GN Cambridge, King's Lynn and Peterborough to Greater Anglia (like WAGN days)
* Keep GatEx with Southern
* Merge Southern and Southeastern
* TL, SN and SE Suburbans - Centro style working with TfL
* Thameslink stand alone

Reasoning:
*GN Suburbans are quite easy to split, and TfL wants them. As long as they don't try something stupid like getting rid of the new fleet, I'm all for it.
*GN to GA is an easy operation to take. I can't see why LNER should take it - end up being the forgotten route.
*GatEx with Southern allows quick flexibility when needed.
*Merging SE and SN - tbh I struggle to justify it.
*Suburbans and TL operation with TfL would allow integration without totally splitting operations. No excuse not to put TL on the Tube Map and it would improve services for us South Londoners. SWR Suburbans should also join the "alliance".
*Thameslink worked stand alone before.

• GN Suburban to LO: Agreed!
• GN Fasts: Do not agree, LNER would be better
  
• GatEX: Agreed!
• SE SN Merge: No, what would be the point
• SE, SN (and SWR) Metro to TfL YES!
• Thameslink alone Yes!

Thameslink to TfL not really? Firstly the Oysters do not run as far as Bedford, Cambridge, Peterborough, Maidstone or Brighton. Secondly how do you think people in Brighton would feel about being managed by TfL?

I do not like the idea of GN Fasts going to GA as I think LNER should take these allowing an integrated operation from London Kings Cross with all FRANCHISED services ran by LNER similar to how all services out of Paddington are GWR, all services out of Liverpool Street are GA etc.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

The reasoning behind GN Outers to LNER is that this would actually be desirable to LNER (not 'forgotten route', at all) because of the more stable commuter income that comes with the route, versus the largely discretionary travel on LNER intercity that can be quite variable (and has caused the several failings of operators on the route because they made too ambitious forecasts, not helped by DfT and Network Rail for different reasons)

 

[swt_passenger]

The reasoning behind GN Outers to LNER is that this would actually be desirable to LNER (not 'forgotten route', at all) because of the more stable commuter income that comes with the route, versus the largely discretionary travel on LNER intercity that can be quite variable (and has caused the several failings of operators on the route because they made too ambitious forecasts, not helped by DfT and Network Rail for different reasons)

Must have been at least someone’s vision of the future anyway, ie back when Kings Cross to Kings Lynn was being touted as an IEP operated route?

 

[RichJF]

Class 387s to return to Southern & the 379s move across to Great Northern (avoid cost of putting 3rd rail shoes on the 379s). This in turn displaces 377s onto the Coastway seeing 313s eliminated.

I actually think the SWR 707s will go to SouthEastern as they need Metro capacity more than Southern. As mentioned above I actually reckon that the SWR 455/456s will end up on Southern given their newer traction & much better interior (over the Southern 455s) & amount of drivers trained on the class already.

I forsee the Turbostars being replaced with some sort of 717 bi-mode based fleet.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Easy:

- GN Inners operated by 717s to be London Overground, creating a singular interchange point for LO's entire network (well, almost!) at Highbury. Stabling of units can take place at Welwyn Sidings (10 units), Hertford Sidings (Up and Down is 4 units) and then one assumes an additional unit at each of Welwyn Platform 1/4 and Hertford Platform 3 (2 units), giving just storage of 11 units at Hornsey or other suitable locations as required (Gordon Hill Bay? Stevenage Bay? Welwyn Up Yard if improved?). Driver depots at Welwyn and Hornsey.

- GN Outers. Return the 29 387s to Southern and get rid of the 21 365s. This creates a unit deficit of 50. Take on the 30 379s for Kings Lynn-type work and some Peterborough trains, as well as 23 377/5s. This will be 3 more units than before but will create a 100mph, more standard fleet.

- Thameslink
-- Do not run the Welwyn to Sevenoaks service. Instead, make it a peak Royston - Sevenoaks service, all stations from Royston to Hatfield then Potters Bar and Finsbury Park.
-- Amend the Cambridge to Maidstone East service at peak times to be fast from Welwyn North to Finsbury Park.
-- Amend the Cambridge to Brighton service at peak to call only at Royston, Letchworth, Hitchin, Stevenage and Finsbury Park.
-- Replace the Baldock service by using the Royston - Sevenoaks.
-- Offer a peak semi-fast Welwyn to Kings Cross with stations such as New Barnet included. Use 377/5s on sub-lease from GN.
-- Kings Lynn services to be fast from Letchworth to Kings Cross at peak as now. Do not include calls at Ashwell etc.

From the above, therefore, GN will only need to resource some peak Peterborough to Kings Cross, Welwyn to Kings Cross and Kings Lynn to Kings Cross trains. Crew to be based at Kings Cross, Peterborough, Letchworth and Kings Lynn (not Cambridge). Some GN stock to operate to/from Letchworth to work Kings Lynn circuits such as morning peak to reduce siding demand at Cambridge. GN operations to merge with existing LNER. Rolling stock (379s, 377s) to be upgraded to be more Intercity-based with trolley service on Kings Lynn route for catering. Some GN fast services at peak to/from Peterborough to extend to Grantham or Newark if appropriate and potential reduction in Stevenage calls if possible for capacity.

Thameslink crew depots to be at Cambridge, Peterborough and Hornsey. Fast Thameslink services from Cambridge to Brighton to all start/terminate at Cambridge North at peak times.

- Gatwick Express
Dissolve brand and operate Gatwick Express services as part of wider Southern network. All 387s (/1 and /2, 56 in all) to be used as part of a wider fleet including other 377s. 387s also to be used on West London Line with a half-hourly service at peak time from Watford Junction to Purley / Caterham / Coulsdon South / Tattenham (as pathing allows), and the half-hourly service continuing all-day with Milton Keynes services.

- Southern
Some form of reliable battery technology fitted to overhauled 376s to be used on Uckfield Line. Coastway to use 377s etc, and SWR 455s and 456s to be pushed across (better interior, new equipment, 10 car ops) to be operated on peak Metro diagrams only (off-peak trains all 377s). Southern 455s displaced, and 313s. 171s also displaced. A small fleet of diesel units to be based at St Leonards / Chart Leacon and operated by Southeastern for Marshlink in 4-car formation (overhauled 170s, 172s (etc) to be used).

Thameslink to remain merged with Southern (and "Gatwick Express" (not a brand anymore)). No further London Overground take over of Southern Metro area or other routes in this franchise area.

 

[JonathanH]

None of these ideas take account of the very significant infrastructure restrictions which apply on the whole GTR network. I suspect that what we have is a very reasonable compromise between crayonista ideas and what can actually be run.