Jamie Bulger killer back in jail

[Kneedown]

and those who don't are considered not quite safe, and on a par with the Taliban.

Really? Are you saying that a soldier who sleeps well at night after doing his duty is considered to be on a par with the insurgents? I'd like to see some substantiation?

And i still maintain that "a death for a death" is a degrading and inhuman attitude - disgusting

I still maintain that a life for a life is the only way in which justice can be served properly, and i believe the majority of people in this country agree.

 

[ukrob]

I still maintain that a life for a life is the only way in which justice can be served properly, and i believe the majority of people in this country agree.

If they did then it would be the law. After all, the people who make laws are people too and the majority of them would vote in favour.

Luckily we are a civilised Western country which doesn't give ten year olds the death penalty, which is precisely what you want, no matter how you dress it up.

 

[Kneedown]

If they did then it would be the law. After all, the people who make laws are people too and the majority of them would vote in favour..

Really? Since when has the will of the people been a factor in deciding the law of the land? When have the general public ever been offered a referendum on capital punishment? When have we ever been granted a referendum on the Lisbon treaty? When have we ever been offered a referendum on immigration? In fact, when have we ever been granted a referendum on anything at all?
The politicians from the two main parties are the ones who decide the laws, and they do so according to their own ideas even though they are hopelessly out of tune with the mainstream population of the land.

http://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/poll.aspx?oItemId=2504

Luckily we are a civilised Western country which doesn't give ten year olds the death penalty, which is precisely what you want, no matter how you dress it up.

This country kills thousands of children every year, innocent babies who havn't even been born. What's civilised about that?
Strange that the type of people who make the most noise against executing convicted criminals, also make the most noise about a womans "right" to abort a perfectly healthy unborn child.

 

[ukrob]

I can see this is going nowhere as you keep moving the goalposts to suit your points.

*Withdraws from thread*

 

[Kneedown]

I can see this is going nowhere as you keep moving the goalposts to suit your points.

*Withdraws from thread*

I've not moved any goalposts. My viewpoint has been consistant throughout.

 

[yorkie]

Yeah, 'consistent' alight. That's the pro-"life", yet pro-execution far-right. Consistently.... erm, I'll leave it at that. :roll::roll:

 

[thefab444]

To counter your second point, are our troops in Afghan supposed to feel remorse everytime they kill an insurgent?

Essentially, yes.

If they don't feel at least minimal remorse when they end somebody else's life, regardless of whether they were on the "good" or "bad" side, then I think it's best for society if we keep them out in Afghanistan!

Yeah, 'consistent' alight. That's the pro-"life", yet pro-execution far-right. Consistently.... erm, I'll leave it at that

Well said sir, religion and hypocrisy go hand in hand.

 

[Kneedown]

Yeah, 'consistent' alight. That's the pro-"life", yet pro-execution far-right. Consistently.... erm, I'll leave it at that. :roll::roll:

I've consistently said that those guilty of murder should recieve the ultimate penalty of the law. The contradiction comes from those who say it would be inhuman to execute or even imprison those boys, yet those same people advocate the killing of innocent life in the womb. :roll::roll: right back atcha!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Essentially, yes.

If they don't feel at least minimal remorse when they end somebody else's life, regardless of whether they were on the "good" or "bad" side, then I think it's best for society if we keep them out in Afghanistan!

Nice to know you support our boys 100% :roll:

Well said sir, religion and hypocrisy go hand in hand.

Who mentioned religion? Not me.

 

[thefab444]

Nice to know you support our boys 100%.

Why should I? As far as I'm concerned they shouldn't be there, and it's not as though anyone is forced into the army. With regards the Taliban, surely if foreign troops invaded this country you'd fight back against them on a matter of principal; even if what they offered was better than the existing system?

Anyway, a lot of the younger soldiers are exactly the sort of people who'd end up hanging around on street corners boozing, being anti-social and generally causing a nuisance and/or fear, so maybe it is better that they are in Afghanistan?

Who mentioned religion? Not me.

I did, an assumption based on a number of factors.

 

[CarterUSM]

With all due respect fab444, it's a bit of a crass statement to make, that lots of younger soldiers would be acting like you claim if they weren't in the military. Poor show mate.

 

[thefab444]

it's a bit of a crass statement to make, that lots of younger soldiers would be acting like you claim if they weren't in the military. Poor show mate.

Well, I'm not tarring them all with the same brush, but it's likely a 'good number' would act like that.

 

[royaloak]

Why dont you go and have a look around there, you could answer your own question with facts!

Did you just edit your post 444?

 

[NSEFAN]

Perhaps people convicted of serious crimes such as murder should be forced to go in the Army. The discipline and team work in conflicts like in Afghanistan would do them some good.

The point of the justice system is to make fit for society those who have committed crimes. There is no point in punishing people for crimes if it does not stop them from re-offending. The problem is sticking people in a cell or executing them, whilst being a deterrent to some, will not change everyone, whereas something proactive like compulsory national service would serve both as a deterrent and a method of rehabilitation.

 

[thefab444]

Did you just edit your post 444?

Yeah, I realised that someone from Aldershot would probably challenge that statement so I got rid of it.

 

[Kneedown]

Perhaps people convicted of serious crimes such as murder should be forced to go in the Army.

I could go along with that. They'd make brilliant landmine detectors.

The point of the justice system is to make fit for society those who have committed crimes .

I disagree. The whole point of the justice system is to ensure criminals pay for there crimes.

There is no point in punishing people for crimes if it does not stop them from re-offending.

Capital punishment is 100% guarenteed to prevent reoffending!

The problem is sticking people in a cell or executing them, whilst being a deterrent to some, will not change everyone,

True, but if just one person is deterred, then at least one innocent life is saved.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why should I? As far as I'm concerned they shouldn't be there, and it's not as though anyone is forced into the army.

Whatever your feelings about the war on terror you should be thoroughly ashamed of that remark.
Those troops, some of whom are still in their teens, are out there risking their necks, and sometimes paying the ultimate price, so you and i and the rest of the population sleep safely in our beds.

 

[ukrob]

Whatever your feelings about the war on terror you should be thoroughly ashamed of that remark.
Those troops, some of whom are still in their teens, are out there risking their necks, and sometimes paying the ultimate price, so you and i and the rest of the population sleep safely in our beds.

I actually agree with you on something

The 'nobody is forced to join up' argument doesn't work - if people didn't volunteer then people would be forced to join up aka national service.

Just because you don't support the politics behind it doesn't mean you should not be supporting our troops.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Well at the time the crime was commited the murderer was a 10-Year old you can hardly execute them without knowing why they have had done to them, and the abuse they had suffered, and what made them turn so violent?

 

[GB]

Some of the opinions expressed towards our troops are distasteful to say the least!

It maybe correct that no one forced them to sign up but the fact of the matter is that if they didnt who would? Who then would protect us in the event of a war a bit closer to home? It is also a fact that the troops do not choose where they serve.

Whether you agree with the current war or not, a little respect and courtesy wouldnt go a miss.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Some of the opinions expressed towards our troops are distasteful to say the least!

It maybe correct that no one forced them to sign up but the fact of the matter is that if they didnt who would? Who then would protect us in the event of a war a bit closer to home? It is also a fact that the troops do not choose where they serve.

Whether you agree with the current war or not, a little respect and courtesy wouldnt go a miss.

I agree.

 

[Oswyntail]

Some of the opinions expressed towards our troops are distasteful to say the least!....

Sticks neck out yet again!
I don't think that the idea that a large number of the soldiers come from the same sector of society as the "Hoody" crowd is distasteful. It has always been true - remember Wellington's remark, "They may not frighten the enemy, but by god they frighten me". What I believe the forces have done is proved that, with discipline and a proper structure, anyone can escape from that environment. Which is, IMHO, also what the prison system is trying to do. And that is why they do feel remorse when they kill someone, as any civilised person would (even the Taliban!). And why suggesting they don't is itself more distasteful, and dehumanises them.

 

[GB]

I don't think that the idea that a large number of the soldiers come from the same sector of society as the "Hoody" crowd is distasteful

Would you care to expand on that assumption?

 

[TrainBrain185]

Why should I? As far as I'm concerned they shouldn't be there, and it's not as though anyone is forced into the army. With regards the Taliban, surely if foreign troops invaded this country you'd fight back against them on a matter of principal; even if what they offered was better than the existing system?

Anyway, a lot of the younger soldiers are exactly the sort of people who'd end up hanging around on street corners boozing, being anti-social and generally causing a nuisance and/or fear, so maybe it is better that they are in Afghanistan?

)

Thats downright callous!! Hang your head in shame!! Who are you to judge?? I award you "The White Feather"!! Find out what that means.

Furthermore, I was sitting opposite an Army lad returning home and he was a true gentleman, helping an infirm lady with her luggage off the train. Take a close look at how some of the injured soldiers are coming back home with limbs blown off, or worse, killed in action....then tell their parents word for word what you wrote and see their reaction.

If I were to express in writing my true thoughts about your statement, I would likely be thrown off the Forum........

 

[jopsuk]

I don't understand the concept of making someone "pay" for their crime by imprisoning them. What does society gain, other than not having a criminal on the streets, by locking them up?

The concept of retribution makes me very uneasy. Plus, retributive justice doesn't really work- unless you take it to the sort of extremes found in, say, Saudi Arabia- but does anyone here really want to live in a police state? The US has much higher crime rates than the UK, yet has capital punishment, stringent sentencing etc.

but it is the miscarriage of justice issue that seals it for me on capital punishment. A single wrongful execution is one too many. Given the occasional miscarriages that are unearthed after lengthy served sentences, it is inconceivable that we could possibly get a 100% correct conviction rate.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Thats downright callous!! Hang your head in shame!! Who are you to judge?? I award you "The White Feather"!! Find out what that means.

Who are you to judge him then?

 

[thefab444]

then tell their parents word for word what you wrote and see their reaction.

That would not be a good idea, they're far too passionate and emotional to take an objective view of the army and the war.

Thanks for the feather.

 

[NSEFAN]

I disagree. The whole point of the justice system is to ensure criminals pay for there crimes.

But if they don't learn from being in prison, then what's the point? People like John Venebles are really disturbed in the head. Keeping them in a cage might well keep them out of the way, but it doesn't change their ways.

To be like that in the first place, he was either born faulty or he was abused by someone close to him. It's the same with paedophiles. We forget that they are human and need to be helped to change their ways.

We don't want people like this to be in our community (and rightly so), but at the same time we don't want to fork out for therapy or prison or drugs or brain surgery or whatever to protect others. Killing them off, to me, doesn't seem right. Part of being an advanced race is that we don't sink to level of criminals in order to punish them, rather we raise them up to a level that we deem acceptable. It's also practical; they can have the chance to give back something to society.

Capital punishment is 100% guaranteed to prevent reoffending!

I meant as a deterrent.

Anyway, a lot of the younger soldiers are exactly the sort of people who'd end up hanging around on street corners boozing, being anti-social and generally causing a nuisance and/or fear, so maybe it is better that they are in Afghanistan?

I wouldn't say anyone deserves to be sent to a warzone, but I can see where you are coming from here. The army gives discipline to a person's life, someone who could have otherwise been anti-social. Everyone there, however, has chosen to be there, so they deserve a bit of respect. The yobs we see on the street are unlikely to join the army out of their own free will. They've more important things to do (like getting blind drunk :roll

 

[Oswyntail]

... The army gives discipline to a person's life, someone who could have otherwise been anti-social. Everyone there, however, has chosen to be there, so they deserve a bit of respect....

I don't think anyone is showing disrespect for members of the forces, who do a job few of us could. And your first point there is what some of us have been saying. It is truly amazing seeing the transformation of some pretty dubious material into courteous and disciplined members of society.

 

[thefab444]

Fully agree with the above two posts.