Ex Virgin Trains Voyagers, where could they go next?

[Clansman]

You could break down the 20 ex-West Coast ones to make 13 6-car sets to take the pressure off of ScotRail, but I don't think ScotRail would thank you for adding another type to their fleet

I don't think anybody in ScotRail would forgive themselves for adding Voyagers to the fleet, let alone the decision makers in the fleet management team and in Transport Scotland. If the HST programme fails, then I imagine ScotRail's priority would be to get enough of them in service to allow 170s to double up any MU operated intercity service, and then source additional sprinters if there are still any shortfalls. Then it will be up to Transport Scotland to specify in the new franchise invitation to tender as to what happens beyond either 2022 (If the franchise break clause is activated) or 2025.

For the clarity of those unfamiliar with the nature of Scottish routes or the specifications of the ScotRail franchise agreement; Voyagers will never in a million years serve as any sort of suitable replacement for HSTs in Scotland. Even Transport Scotland and ScotRail recognise this. Push comes to shove Meridians (with the exception of luggage capacity credit where credit is due they aren't bad trains) would be the lowest ScotRail would turn to out of the 22x family if their HST programme is at gridlock by the time they are released from EMR, but by that point bi-modes would be the best alternative. Voyagers are just a definite red line that they will never cross. And no wonder.

There may be places for 22x units (even in Scotland), but being the main stay of Scottish intercity services is just not it. XC are the only alternative.

 

[Bevan Price]

I would agree with most of the above - XC is the ideal home for displaced 221s. But will XC be willing to pay to hire more 221s?

221s share a problem with 185s - for many routes they are too powerful, and would consume too much fuel. I can see some of them finding their way into storage - wasteful, but parts of the "money industry" probably do not care too much about that -- anything that might make XC lose more money would be their main concern.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Well 222's are just 220's with a different fiberglass moulding on the front, so shouldn't need any retraining. It would be stupid for XC to not take both.

But this is Arriva we're talking about. You never know what they will do. Just look at Northern

 

[krus_aragon]

I would agree with most of the above - XC is the ideal home for displaced 221s. But will XC be willing to pay to hire more 221s?

Given that the franchise is due for renewal (or direct-award extension), the question is more "will the DfT be willing for the franchise to pay for the 221s?"

 

[squizzler]

Re-guage and send to Ireland

 

[Aictos]

But this is Arriva we're talking about. You never know what they will do. Just look at Northern

But they’re not!

The Class 222s are engineered differently from the Class 220/221s as they don’t tilt plus there’s more infrastructure under the train which created more interior space.

So to say the only difference is the fibreglass front is rather naive.

 

[jopsuk]

Realistic: they end up as-is with XC.

Fantasy: as the Meridians are going to be spare too, commit to heavy rebuild of the 22x family (mainly interior), fully removing all the tilt equipment from the 221s and replacing them with similar bogies to 220/222. Build the pantograph/transformer cars from project Thor.

Form them up as 8 or 9 car units, with one driving car turned into a van for bikes and other luggage (eg summer surfboards to the south west). Make this Cross Country fleet.

For this there's an excess of driving cars, we really only need count centre cars, of which there are 281 across all 22x fleets. As 9 car units with two new Thor cars, that needs 5 cars per set. This gives 56 sets with one carriage left over. 56 sets is plenty for the current XC franchise.

which leaves 98 driving cars spare.

Getting into proper wibble, if even more Thor cars were being built, the engines from driving cars could be recovered. If created in 6 car units with two electric carriages, that would give 24 units. If just one more spare engine unit could be found, this could be 25.

Which is just short of what Scotrail would need if they were to be HST fleet replacements. But if the use of them on Inverness-Aberdeen was discontinued in favour of a new Highland class (for West Highland Line & Far North plus A2I it could work?

 

[squizzler]

Realistic: they end up as-is with XC.

Fantasy: as the Meridians are going to be spare too, commit to heavy rebuild of the 22x family (mainly interior), fully removing all the tilt equipment from the 221s and replacing them with similar bogies to 220/222. Build the pantograph/transformer cars from project Thor.

Form them up as 8 or 9 car units, with one driving car turned into a van for bikes and other luggage (eg summer surfboards to the south west). Make this Cross Country fleet.

For this there's an excess of driving cars, we really only need count centre cars, of which there are 281 across all 22x fleets. As 9 car units with two new Thor cars, that needs 5 cars per set. This gives 56 sets with one carriage left over. 56 sets is plenty for the current XC franchise.

which leaves 98 driving cars spare.

Getting into proper wibble, if even more Thor cars were being built, the engines from driving cars could be recovered. If created in 6 car units with two electric carriages, that would give 24 units. If just one more spare engine unit could be found, this could be 25.

Which is just short of what Scotrail would need if they were to be HST fleet replacements. But if the use of them on Inverness-Aberdeen was discontinued in favour of a new Highland class (for West Highland Line & Far North plus A2I it could work?

I agree with all of that but would perhaps go further:

The voyagers are so overweight compared to recent stock, and as commented here suffer lack of interior space due to bad layout and tilt profile. Given that everything below the sole bar seems to work well but the cabin would need to be stripped and knocked about anyway, why not create a new body shell which can accept voyager parts as a donor vehicle? After all you would be designing and building new pantograph cars anyway. Re-shelling means you would not be restrained by the mix of middle and end cars of the existing fleet.

If a new passenger rail vehicle costs one or two million each, how much of that is in the bodyshell?

 

[Aictos]

Me thinks a reality check is needed so here you go...

The Class 222 is similar to the Class 220 Voyager and Class 221 Super Voyager trains used by CrossCountry and Virgin Trains, but it has a different interior. The Class 222 trains have more components fitted under the floors to free up space within the body.

Therefore while the trains are similar, they are different.

As to Thor carriages, that ain’t going to happen as it’s been discussed many times and explained many times why the idea wasn’t taken forward.

 

[whhistle]

Any "221s to replace 170s" plan would be a non-starter in my book.

If the issues with Stansted (and other areas?) were solved, re-gear the 4-car Voyagers to 100mph (worth it?), they *could* do fairly well on the Birmingham - Stansted route.
220: 174 standard class, 26 first class
170 (3-car): up to 200 seats

With a bit of jiggery pokery, taking out First Class (maybe have a small section), I'd bet the 4-coach units would provide more seats than the current 3-coach units and many Stansted services use just 2-car units.

The shame about Turbostars is they're really slow off the mark.
If this can be solved, some of the 22x fleet may go for scrap.

 

[whhistle]

And they could replace the 170s on Cardiff - Nottingham, where extra capacity is urgently needed.

Not possible.
These units interchange with the Birmingham - Stansted route throughout the day.
Voyagers cannot run to Stansted.
Unlikely they'd split the pool of trains up, as Senior Conductors would then become Train Managers but work half their day / full day on a lower paid Senior Conductor working.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Not possible.
These units interchange with the Birmingham - Stansted route throughout the day.
Voyagers cannot run to Stansted.
Unlikely they'd split the pool of trains up, as Senior Conductors would then become Train Managers but work half their day / full day on a lower paid Senior Conductor working.

Make it Birmingham to Peterborough and leave Stanstead to electrified Greater Anglia services. Birmingham-Peterborough and Cardiff-Nottingham would flourish with Voyagers and maybe allow for services increases with quicker turnarounds.

 

[Aictos]

Make it Birmingham to Peterborough and leave Stanstead to electrified Greater Anglia services. Birmingham-Peterborough and Cardiff-Nottingham would flourish with Voyagers and maybe allow for services increases with quicker turnarounds.

Only issue with that is the Peterborough to Ely section isn't electrified and I think it's a line that although ought to be done, sadly will never happen.

If the 20 Class 221s go to Cross Country then some services which are 4 car operated could be extended to 5 cars and some services which are 8 car operated could be extended to 9 or 10 car operations.

The priority though should be to ensure the longest formations on the most busiest services where possible.

 

[PartyOperator]

It would be a real shame if XC getting more voyagers became an excuse for keeping these trains running under the wires between Bromsgrove/Coventry and Manchester. Most of the people going between Birmingham and Manchester seem to be getting on/off at New Street anyway.

 

[Aictos]

It would be a real shame if XC getting more voyagers became an excuse for keeping these trains running under the wires between Bromsgrove/Coventry and Manchester. Most of the people going between Birmingham and Manchester seem to be getting on/off at New Street anyway.

However until the extremities of the Cross Country Network sees wires, they will need diesel trains but I see your point, what XC really needs is bi modes to make the best use of the infrastructure.

However I think any spare Voyagers would need to go to XC for two reasons, 1. It means one TOC operates the Class 220/221 fleets which can work in multiple with each other and 2. It gives XC the long overdue ability to strengthen some of their most overcrowded services without relying on a stop gap aka HSTs.

 

[class 9]

It would be a real shame if XC getting more voyagers became an excuse for keeping these trains running under the wires between Bromsgrove/Coventry and Manchester. Most of the people going between Birmingham and Manchester seem to be getting on/off at New Street anyway.

Also from South Kirby Jct to Glasgow Central,probably over 300 miles under the wires.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Also from South Kirby Jct to Glasgow Central,probably over 300 miles under the wires.

The line between Neville Hill and Colton Junction isn't electrified, although it is planned to be at some point.

 

[class 9]

Yes, but that’s probably around 20 miles, so still probably knocking on 300 under the wires.
XC is probably the TOC most in need of bi modes as it won’t be far off 50/50 diesel/electric( on the NE-SW operations)

 

[thenorthern]

It's unlikely but they may end up with one of the proposed WCML open access operators, the 125 mph capability on the WCML is a unique selling point to any TOC as all other stock available in the near future can't achieve this.

 

[James Kevill]

I agree with some people say that the 20 Class 221 Super Voyagers from Virgin Trains West Coast could be transferred to CrossCountry franchise. I think it's a great idea, and they could form a uniform fleet with the numbers in order (221101-221144). The numbers of services would be increased too.

 

[ScotTrains]

How about using them on a new Glasgow to Leeds service (TPEx or XC)? They can take advantage of tilt on the WCML and diesel on the non electrified S&C.

 

[HSTEd]

Pull the intermediate vehicles out of the Virgin 221s and use them for reinforcement, scrap the driving cars.

The driving cars don't have the capacity to justify their leasing and operating costs.
XC don't really need additional units, they need more seats - and 60 intermediate vehicles constitutes the vast majority of the seats in the entire formations.
Apparently Class 220 and 221 vehicles can be mixed, so XC could make a fleet of five and six car units, that would solve a substantial fraction of their capacity issues.

HST Replacements can just be IEPs, XC probably have more use for them than many.

EDIT:
But because this is Speculative ideas..... what is the gangway height on the 220 and on the Mark 3... are they close enough for an adaptor plate to allow them to be coupled together, assuming the correct couplings are fitted?

A 6-car 22x has as many horsepower as a HST...

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

Not possible.
These units interchange with the Birmingham - Stansted route throughout the day.
Voyagers cannot run to Stansted.
Unlikely they'd split the pool of trains up, as Senior Conductors would then become Train Managers but work half their day / full day on a lower paid Senior Conductor working.

So what's the issue with Stansted?

 

[krus_aragon]

So what's the issue with Stansted?

The platform they currently use there (platform 2) is too short: 106m per the Sectional Appendix. The other two platforms there are longer (291m and 359m), but I have no idea what the occupancy of those platforms is.

 

[TheBigD]

Not possible.
These units interchange with the Birmingham - Stansted route throughout the day.
Voyagers cannot run to Stansted.
Unlikely they'd split the pool of trains up, as Senior Conductors would then become Train Managers but work half their day / full day on a lower paid Senior Conductor working.

They don't, apart from the 0515 Cambridge-Birmingham which then works the 0819 Birmingham-Nottingham. (There's now an 0624 Bristol-stansted and an evening Leicester-Gloucester as well).
The units on the Nottingham-Cardiff route and Birmingham-Stansted route don't interwork during the day. Apart from the above and some very late night swaps they stick to their respective routes. At New Street generally the xx14 from Leicester works the XX22 to Stansted, the xx39 from Stansted works the xx52 to Leicester, and the xx55 from Nottingham works the xx19 to Nottingham.
There is however, a fair bit of interlocking for the crews. New Street and Leicester depots work both routes, either wholly or partially, and have plenty of diagrams that work both routes during the shift.

 

[TheBigD]

The platform they currently use there (platform 2) is too short: 106m per the Sectional Appendix. The other two platforms there are longer (291m and 359m), but I have no idea what the occupancy of those platforms is.

Not a lot of room spare on either of the longer platforms. The recent Greater Anglia Cambridge service goes on top of a London service, the Norwich service which replaces it will do the same. Platform 2 is occupied xx40 to xx27 with XC services. Added to the single track tunnel in to Stansted Airport there isn't a much, if any, spare capacity for more or longer services.

 

[TheBigD]

Not possible.
These units interchange with the Birmingham - Stansted route throughout the day.
Voyagers cannot run to Stansted.
Unlikely they'd split the pool of trains up, as Senior Conductors would then become Train Managers but work half their day / full day on a lower paid Senior Conductor working.

Whilst the Voyagers aren't cleared to Stansted I suspect that it would be pretty simple to get them cleared.

220/221s see some ad hoc work Birmingham-Leicester and are already cleared.
222s work daily between Leicester to Manton Junction.
222s under Hull Trains use saw diversion work Peterborough to Cambridge (Shelford Junction).
In the early days of EMT a 222 test run Nottingham-Norwich, out via Grantham and back via Manton ran.

Only part of the route that hasn't seen a 220/1/2 to the best of my knowledge is Shelford Junction-Stansted.

 

[JamesT]

The platform they currently use there (platform 2) is too short: 106m per the Sectional Appendix. The other two platforms there are longer (291m and 359m), but I have no idea what the occupancy of those platforms is.

Surely 106m is long enough to fit a 4 car Voyager in? It won’t fit a 5 car, but that doesn’t seem like an insurmountable diagramming issue to me.

 

[krus_aragon]

Surely 106m is long enough to fit a 4 car Voyager in? It won’t fit a 5 car, but that doesn’t seem like an insurmountable diagramming issue to me.

I'd expect so, but I was told in the EMT Rolling Stock thread* that 4-car Voyagers would be a drop in capacity compared with a 3 / 4-car 170, and would be a no-go.

*in the context of exchanging EMT 222s for XC 170s.

 

[whhistle]

They don't.

Umm, I see a large range of the 170s on one of those routes. I'm talking about the physical trains being interchanged - IE, 170398 could work either the BHM - SSD or BHM - NOT service.

If it's a 170, they'll stick it on whatever is needed.
If you use 22x for the BHM - NOT, it means they'd be reducing their flexibility.

Whilst the Voyagers aren't cleared to Stansted I suspect that it would be pretty simple to get them cleared.

If there's no capacity (which you alluded to yourself) there's no point.
But after reading elsewhere, the problem isn't just platform lengths.