Ex Virgin Trains Voyagers, where could they go next?

[Aictos]

I know people here are mentioning Cross Country but it’s not for certain that they will go there even though it makes the most sense to have both Class 220/221s operated by the same operator.

Another place they could go is Scotland, regear them to 110mph and use them on the IC services within Scotland as they’re far newer then the HSTs and will likely enter service quicker too!

Feel free to discuss where the fleet ought to go...

 

[ainsworth74]

Just a note that the discussion about the West Coast Partnership award confirming that the Voyagers are being replaced (and a host of other interesting bits and pieces) can be found here. So there's no need to rehash discussion about the wider award on this thread. Let's keep it to wild and exciting speculation about where the Voyagers will go

 

[Lanley]

Sending them to Scotland seems a reasonable proposal. I can't help but feel as though a wholistic approach to rolling stock would be better. I.e. identify services such as the Scottish ones where a pure DEMU would suffice and those where bi-mode capability would be useful such as core XC.

From a selfish point of view, anything to boost capacity on XC would be helpful and for fleet harmonisation, and I can see this happening. Especially given the XC direct award speculation. It would tie in with any operator to be able to use these as well as the 222 from EMR.
Maybe there will be enough to go around to intercity and regional services across the country which are in dire need of capacity!

 

[Aictos]

Just a note that the discussion about the West Coast Partnership award confirming that the Voyagers are being replaced (and a host of other interesting bits and pieces) can be found here. So there's no need to rehash discussion about the wider award on this thread. Let's keep it to wild and exciting speculation about where the Voyagers will go

I intend to, that’s why I created this thread

Scotland would be a good place as they wouldn’t be seen as old trains assuming a decent refurb was in order but the first priority should be to cascade them to the XC franchise as that is in dire needs of extra capacity!

 

[ainsworth74]

Gotta be going to XC surely? Fully compatible (well once they take out the tilt mechanisms anyway) with the existing stock and signed by the relevant train crew who are all experienced in their use. A quick spot of interior work to bring them in line with the XC Voyagers (take out the shop for instance) and boom. An extra twenty sets or put another way an extra 100 vehicles which can be used almost immediately with a franchise that is crying out for extra capacity.

 

[Kite159]

XC would be the most sensible option, keep the fleet together with Central Rivers being the base. Would allow more services to be doubled up

 

[class 9]

No brainier really, to XC they keep same depot, no training costs, additional capacity urgently needed.
Send them anywhere else & you have to find depot capacity, train Maintainance/train crew to train up, all incurring additional cost.

 

[hexagon789]

I know people here are mentioning Cross Country but it’s not for certain that they will go there even though it makes the most sense to have both Class 220/221s operated by the same operator.

Another place they could go is Scotland, regear them to 110mph and use them on the IC services within Scotland as they’re far newer then the HSTs and will likely enter service quicker too!

Feel free to discuss where the fleet ought to go...

XC, they have 221s already, thus they have traction knowledge, maintenance knowledge and the ability to of course use them in multiple with existing trains.

The most logical and likely choice in my opinion.

 

[Aictos]

XC, they have 221s already, thus they have traction knowledge, maintenance knowledge and the ability to of course use them in multiple with existing trains.

The most logical and likely choice in my opinion.

Yes but are we talking DfT here and common sense in the same sentence?

 

[hexagon789]

Yes but are we talking DfT here and common sense in the same sentence?

Good point, though it makes more sense than the 222s. Would be better for XC to get the 221s and the 222s to go en masse to another TOC.

 

[Clansman]

Sending them to Scotland seems a reasonable proposal

They wouldn't be suitable for any Scottish intercity routes. No tilt support outwith the WCML, and a complete drain on capacity both in terms of seating and luggage provisions from tilt profiling and short sighted specs. Not sure where the whole Scottish suitability logic keeps deriving from when it comes to them. It's pretty dumfounding to be honest.

At a push, the only routes in Scotland where their usage would seem semi-logical would be GSW services and at an even bigger unrealistic push; the new regular semi-fasts starting up from Tayside to Glasgow/Edinburgh. And that's at a massive push!

 

[tbtc]

If not XC (has anyone suggested XC yet?) then the only other realistic place is a cascade with the Voyagers going to GC and the GC 180s going to Gillette to make razor blades.

125mph Voyagers would be a waste on most other TOCs - their terrible internal layout and "crumple zones" mean that they have few seats for their 100m+ length - if the answer is to replace trains on "Provincial" franchises then you'd be much better with Turbostars (many more seats for the length of platform, since no 125mph running will be required). There are going to be 175s and 185s out of contract soon, if anyone needs a 100mph Provincial DMU.

ScotRail may sweat the HSTs for a decade before they are in a position to take a decision on bi-modes for their longer distance services (i.e. by that time they'll have run out of Central Belt lines to electrify so can consider Fife/ Perth/ Dundee/ Aberdeen/ Inverness)

Any "221s to replace 170s" plan would be a non-starter in my book. As would some speculative idea about fanciful services (please no "Nottingham - Settle - Glasgow"!). The only other potential place might be Chiltern, to get rid of their loco-hauled (but, again, would be a waste, given that Chiltern don't need 125mph stock).

Here's a thought that seems strange/unfamiliar... if they do go to XC (if...) then that could be a transformed franchise - the VT221s and the EMT222s could turn XC into a whole different franchise. Imagine a world where there was sufficient space on cross country services? Mind-blowing!

 

[Clansman]

125mph Voyagers would be a waste on most other TOCs - their terrible internal layout and "crumple zones" mean that they have few seats for their 100m+ length - if the answer is to replace trains on "Provincial" franchises then you'd be much better with Turbostars (many more seats for the length of platform, since no 125mph running will be required). There are going to be 175s and 185s out of contract soon, if anyone needs a 100mph Provincial DMU.
ScotRail may sweat the HSTs for a decade before they are in a position to take a decision on bi-modes for their longer distance services (i.e. by that time they'll have run out of Central Belt lines to electrify so can consider Fife/ Perth/ Dundee/ Aberdeen/ Inverness)

It depends what Turbostar operated routes you are running them on. In the context of Scotland, we all know 170s have grossley dominated basically every reasonably populated corner of the country, despite their most suited route being circuits around the Fife Circle. So yes, in this case replacing them with Voyagers would be meaningless and make a currently bad situation worse.

But on regional routes where journey times are of just over an hour and reasonably limited stop services which shadow busier and full on capacity intercity services, then dare I say Voyagers can fill a void. Not that I'm suggesting in any way that it's realistic, but for the sake of the Scotland suggestion, it is one of the most reasonable. Hence my scored out massive push slightly realistic adaptation to Lanley's suggestion, because even then it sounds ridiculous. As anybody who is a regular traveller between Arbroath/Dundee to Edinburgh/Glasgow will know how ill suited the 170s are, there is a lot of areas (particularly between Perth and Dunblane) where they struggle for acceleration and IIRC there's a point somewhere where full pelt can't even hold the speed constant. Just goes to show how knackered they are from getting pounded up the Slochd day in day out.

Alternatives such as 180s and 185s don't fit the bill either. 180s are a bomb scare for mechanics (though admittedley have the better regional MU layout), and 185s can't run at MU differentials and are ridiculously heavy (then again so are Voyagers). So out of the 3, my bet would be on the Voyagers. But in reality, it's a definite no-no, which is what a lot of people adament on the whole Scotland thing don't really seem to get when examining their suitability on Intercity and Highland routes.

 

[Kite159]

If not XC (has anyone suggested XC yet?) then the only other realistic place is a cascade with the Voyagers going to GC and the GC 180s going to Gillette to make razor blades.

125mph Voyagers would be a waste on most other TOCs - their terrible internal layout and "crumple zones" mean that they have few seats for their 100m+ length - if the answer is to replace trains on "Provincial" franchises then you'd be much better with Turbostars (many more seats for the length of platform, since no 125mph running will be required). There are going to be 175s and 185s out of contract soon, if anyone needs a 100mph Provincial DMU.

ScotRail may sweat the HSTs for a decade before they are in a position to take a decision on bi-modes for their longer distance services (i.e. by that time they'll have run out of Central Belt lines to electrify so can consider Fife/ Perth/ Dundee/ Aberdeen/ Inverness)

Any "221s to replace 170s" plan would be a non-starter in my book. As would some speculative idea about fanciful services (please no "Nottingham - Settle - Glasgow"!). The only other potential place might be Chiltern, to get rid of their loco-hauled (but, again, would be a waste, given that Chiltern don't need 125mph stock).

Here's a thought that seems strange/unfamiliar... if they do go to XC (if...) then that could be a transformed franchise - the VT221s and the EMT222s could turn XC into a whole different franchise. Imagine a world where there was sufficient space on cross country services? Mind-blowing!

If Arriva ever decide to replace the 180s for Grand Central, I would expect them to move for bi-modes to make use of the wires.

 

[tbtc]

It depends what Turbostar operated routes you are running them on. In the context of Scotland, we all know 170s have grossley dominated basically every reasonably populated corner of the country, despite their most suited route being circuits around the Fife Circle. So yes, in this case replacing them with Voyagers would be meaningless and make a currently bad situation worse.

But on regional routes where journey times are of just over an hour and reasonably limited stop services which shadow busier and full on capacity intercity services, then dare I say Voyagers can fill a void. Not that I'm suggesting in any way that it's realistic, but for the sake of the Scotland suggestion, it is one of the most reasonable. Hence my scored out massive push slightly realistic adaptation to Lanley's suggestion, because even then it sounds ridiculous. As anybody who is a regular traveller between Arbroath/Dundee to Edinburgh/Glasgow will know how ill suited the 170s are, there is a lot of areas (particularly between Perth and Dunblane) where they struggle for acceleration and IIRC there's a point somewhere where full pelt can't even hold the speed constant. Just goes to show how knackered they are from getting pounded up the Slochd day in day out.

Alternatives such as 180s and 185s don't fit the bill either. 180s are a bomb scare for mechanics (though admittedley have the better regional MU layout), and 185s can't run at MU differentials and are ridiculously heavy (then again so are Voyagers). So out of the 3, my bet would be on the Voyagers. But in reality, it's a definite no-no, which is what a lot of people adament on the whole Scotland thing don't really seem to get when examining their suitability on Intercity and Highland routes.

True - I thought that the HSTs were replacing all of the longer distance 170 duties (?)

(admittedly Wabtec won't finish refurbishing by around 2040, at their current rate, so maybe the Voyagers could be used for a few years!)

If Arriva ever decide to replace the 180s for Grand Central, I would expect them to move for bi-modes to make use of the wires.

Agreed - it's a long way under the wires from Kings Cross to Norhtallerton - I'm not saying Voyagers would be ideal, just that GC will be about the only operator looking for self powered trains capable of running at 125mph (though they certainly they don't need twenty something units!)

 

[Jozhua]

Damn, I thought the 222's were going to go to XC, but 20 221's coming free is practically a goldmine!

Long suffering Cross Country passengers could finally be in for some relief. You'd have to be silly not to give them to Cross Country, the trains are literally made for them!

However, I have some ideas of what the DaFT will likely do:

• Assign the entire fleet to running 20 car trains directly from the transport secretary's constituency to central London.
• Ship them off to another country entirely.
• Scrap the entire 221 fleet, including cross country's trains and replace them all with a single pacer being dragged by 180.
• Use them to run Crossrail.

 

[krus_aragon]

If Cross Country were to acquire all the 22x fleets (and send their 170s somewhere else, such as EMR) that'd be a net gain of roughly 20 trains (making a fleet of 6 x 7-car units, 51 x 5-car units, and 42 x 4-car units across all the classes, without any reforming).

If the 222s were kept on the current 170 routes (as they can't couple with the 220/221 and it's TMS), reforming into 8 x 6-car units and 19 x 5-car units should give a capacity increase on virtually every diagram. It'd be 27 222s replacing 29 170s, but I'm sure there are some 2 x 2-car 170 diagrams that could be operated by a 6-car 222 instead.

Of the 20 ex-VT 221s, ten units doubled up could displace the five HSTs (if desired), and the other ten could double up with or cascade several other diagrams, as has been described by other posters in the past. (Two 5-car units displace two 4-car units, they double up to 8-cars to displace another 5-car unit, which in turn displaces a 4-car, etc...)

 

[LOL The Irony]

Cross Country - NEXT!

 

[thealm]

There is no doubt about it that the 221’s should go to Cross Country:

1. They already have 221’s meaning no training
2. They are experiencing extreme capacity problems
3. They need to get rid of their HST’s

There would be an uproar from CrossCountry travellers if they didn’t.

 

[LOL The Irony]

There is no doubt about it that the 221’s should go to Cross Country:

1. They already have 221 meaning no training

Well 222's are just 220's with a different fiberglass moulding on the front, so shouldn't need any retraining. It would be stupid for XC to not take both.

 

[Clansman]

True - I thought that the HSTs were replacing all of the longer distance 170 duties (?)

There will still be a few DMU diagrams, particularly between Aberdeen and Inverness. Also, when everything is sorted with the HSTs, ScotRail are going to impliment new regular hourly semi-fast services between Glasgow and Arbroath and Dundee, which will all be DMU operated.

 

[Chester1]

There is no doubt about it that the 221’s should go to Cross Country:

1. They already have 221’s meaning no training
2. They are experiencing extreme capacity problems
3. They need to get rid of their HST’s

There would be an uproar from CrossCountry travellers if they didn’t.

Meridians would be fine too. They can't work with Voyagers but they wouldn't need to. CrossCountry should get both fleets but they probably won't. I guess it depends on leasing costs and how many units are needed.

With investment Voyagers could do a range of services. They are very fuel inefficient and replacing the engines with modern diesel hybrids (proposed for Turbostars) and an internal refit might be worthwhile if the owners get another 10 years of leasing.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I intend to, that’s why I created this thread

Scotland would be a good place as they wouldn’t be seen as old trains assuming a decent refurb was in order but the first priority should be to cascade them to the XC franchise as that is in dire needs of extra capacity!

Given,as someone else said,TS(Transport Scotland)are going to end up electrifying every single intercity route in Scotland at some point, cascading the Voyagers up there to replace the HST's and cascade a few of the 170's out of the way seems like a bad idea when the remainder of non-electrified parts could easily be served by a set of bi-modes.

 

[Indigo Soup]

They wouldn't be suitable for any Scottish intercity routes. No tilt support outwith the WCML, and a complete drain on capacity both in terms of seating and luggage provisions from tilt profiling and short sighted specs. Not sure where the whole Scottish suitability logic keeps deriving from when it comes to them. It's pretty dumfounding to be honest.

In pure performance terms, even without tilt or 125mph running they'd be able to do what ScotRail wants. Realistically, though, the tilt will be redundant if they leave the WCML, and 125mph capability is going to be wasted on most routes. Perhaps more importantly, the Voyager cabin environment is so far short of expectations that they'd need a massive amount of work.

CrossCountry is, of course, the sensible place for them. Anything else would underutilise them and/or inflict a small fleet on the operator.

 

[hexagon789]

This must be one of the few threads where we're almost all in agreement!

VT 221s to XC

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Wales surely - Manchester to West Wales and the Holyhead to Cardiff route. Overcrowding solved at a financial stroke. Use Chester and Landore depots.

Any surplus could be retained for the inevitable re-opening of Carmarthen to Aberystwyth provided they could accomodate the tail traffic of 6 wheel milk tanks.

 

[geoffk]

There is no doubt about it that the 221’s should go to Cross Country:

1. They already have 221’s meaning no training
2. They are experiencing extreme capacity problems
3. They need to get rid of their HST’s

There would be an uproar from CrossCountry travellers if they didn’t.

And they could replace the 170s on Cardiff - Nottingham, where extra capacity is urgently needed.

 

[cactustwirly]

Well 222's are just 220's with a different fiberglass moulding on the front, so shouldn't need any retraining. It would be stupid for XC to not take both.

No, the 222s have a completely different TMS system, which would need training, plus they have a different internal layout

 

[sprinterguy]

Sending them to Scotland seems a reasonable proposal.

20 units wouldn't be enough to cover all the planned HST diagrams (For which there'll be 26 sets) and 221s have fewer seats than the 2+5 HSTs that will ultimately make up the bulk of the Scotrail fleet.

If Wabtec can keep up even their current lackadaisical rate of delivery of refurbished HST sets then the whole fleet will still be delivered long before the Virgin 221s become available, and I assume the HST leases are locked in until the end of the franchise so that Angel Trains stand a chance of recouping at least some of their outlay on the refurbishments.

 

[Indigo Soup]

20 units wouldn't be enough to cover all the planned HST diagrams (For which there'll be 26 sets) and 221s have fewer seats than the 2+5 HSTs that will ultimately make up the bulk of the Scotrail fleet.

A 5-car 221 compares fairly closely to a ScotRail 2+4 HST, with 16 more Standard seats and 6 fewer First Class. To match a 2+5 HST, you'd need to find some extra Standard coaches. You could break down the 20 ex-West Coast ones to make 13 6-car sets to take the pressure off of ScotRail, but I don't think ScotRail would thank you for adding another type to their fleet, and quite what you'd do with the left-over 14 driving vehicles, 7 buffet cars and a random coach I have no idea. It's not like there's huge demand for 125mph-capable 3-car sets with a buffet and too much First Class seating.