LNER looks at purchasing more Azumas

[Jorge Da Silva]

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/more-new-trains-on-lner-wish-list

More new trains on LNER wish list

LNER has revealed it is in the market for new trains, despite only just starting to introduce its new Hitachi Azumas.

Engineering Director John Doughty told RAIL that the operator needs more vehicles to meet the requirements of the planned timetable upgrade in 2021.

Initially the plan was to retain Class 91s with shorter rakes of Mk 4s that would be used on limited-stop expresses between London King’s Cross and Edinburgh. However, that has changed because the older stock would need significant rebuilding and refurbishment following a period out of traffic.

Doughty said: “We will need new trains to support the timetable change, otherwise it will be tight.”

He explained that “slightly more than six” would be required, but did not give a definitive number. These would likely be ten-car trains. LNER later confirmed the figure was could be from six to eight.

Ideally, the company would like to increase its existing Hitachi order. However, the operator must comply with European Union regulations which decrees there must be an open competition. Doughty said there was no option for additional Azumas, and that the 65 on order would be the only ones from that contract.

• For the FULL story, read RAIL 885, published on August 14, and available digitally on Android, iPad and Kindle from August 10.

Any thoughts?

 

[hexagon789]

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/more-new-trains-on-lner-wish-list



Any thoughts?

I mentioned this in the LNER Azuma thread; its instead of retaining 225s for the Edinburgh fasts.

As the proposal is for 10-car I'm curious to know if the additional car would be a full standard or if they'd make the composite a full First as well to better balance the seating.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I mentioned this in the LNER Azuma thread; its instead of retaining 225s for the Edinburgh fasts.

As the proposal is for 10-car I'm curious to know if the additional car would be a full standard or if they'd make the composite a full First as well to better balance the seating.

It may be also to rival the planned open-access service by First Group from 2021 (intresting the new limited-stop express service by LNER is proposed to start by 2021 by the sounds of it).

It also states 'they would like' to have Azuma's BUT it is not certain it will be.

Considering the First's proposal has no first-class it may be a good move for LNER to have First class.

 

[hexagon789]

It may be also to rival the planned open-access service by First Group from 2021 (intresting the new limited-stop express service by LNER is proposed to start by 2021 by the sounds of it).

It also states 'they would like' to have Azumas BUT it is not certain it will be

The even more limited stop Edinburgh was proposed under VTEC, using shortened 225s. I'm not sure of the original proposal was before or after First's open access bid though.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

The even more limited stop Edinburgh was proposed under VTEC, using shortened 225s. I'm not sure of the original proposal was before or after First's open access bid though.

I think it was after but do you know how many stops it will be?

 

[hexagon789]

I think it was after but do you know how many stops it will be?

Alternating - Newcastle only in 4 hours one hour; Newcastle & York in 4hrs 05 the next hour.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Alternating - Newcastle only in 4 hours one hour; Newcastle & York in 4hrs 05 the next hour.

So its:

1tph: London Kings Cross to Edinburgh: Calling at: York (1tp2h), Newcastle and Edinburgh

 

[hexagon789]

So its:

1tph: London Kings Cross to Edinburgh: Calling at: York (1tp2h), Newcastle and Edinburgh

That was the proposal I saw for a faster Edinburgh fast, yes.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

That was the proposal I saw for a faster Edinburgh fast, yes.

Where did you see this out of interest do you have a source? I think it is a good move for LNER to purchase new trains.

 

[swt_passenger]

Where did you see this out of interest do you have a source? I think it is a good move for LNER to purchase new trains.

It’s in the ECML 2020/2021 track access application that’s been quoted in numerous threads, and isn’t really speculation...
https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...any-limited-application-form-p-section-17.pdf
The easiest source is the route maps towards the end. Just to emphasise though, these fast services were already planned to use 7 car Mk4 sets, so it isn’t really a story about extra services.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

It’s in the ECML 2020/2021 track access application that’s been quoted in numerous threads, and isn’t really speculation...
https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...any-limited-application-form-p-section-17.pdf
The easiest source is the route maps towards the end.

That is not the reason why it is in speculative. The title of the article says More new trains on LNER's wish list.

 

[swt_passenger]

That is not the reason why it is in speculative. The title of the article says More new trains on LNER's wish list.

Agree, but the service itself is not speculation.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Agree, but the service itself is not speculation.

Never said it was.

 

[hexagon789]

Where did you see this out of interest do you have a source? I think it is a good move for LNER to purchase new trains.

Was in the Azuma thread, the original source for those posts is likely that detailed above.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Was in the Azuma thread, the original source for those posts is likely that detailed above.

Yeah guessed so. Could we see a Class 803 with the orders from First Group, East Midlands Railway and LNER? It sounds like LNER is not getting more Azuma’s but another type of train

 

[tbtc]

Good news, if it happens, especially if it means that the production line keeps open and there's scope for more AT300s for GWR/ TPE/ EMR/ HT in the next year or two (which leaves the market open for other customers too...)

the older stock would need significant rebuilding and refurbishment following a period out of traffic

Worth highlighting the above, given the regular ideas on here for tarting up ancient stock and trying to find a future for it (if even the thirty year old 225s are not worth trying to upgrade)

 

[hexagon789]

Yeah guessed so. Could we see a Class 803 with the orders from First Group, East Midlands Railway and LNER? It sounds like LNER is not getting more Azuma’s but another type of train

Aren't those bi-modes? I know LNER haven't stated as such but it seemed likely the new trains would be pure electric (other than perhaps a recovery engine as with the 801s).

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Aren't those bi-modes? I know LNER haven't stated as such but it seemed likely the new trains would be pure electric (other than perhaps a recovery engine as with the 801s).

Yes I had not thought of that maybe an 803 and 804.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes I had not thought of that maybe an 803 and 804.

Could simply be 801, but a new subclass.

 

[Laketop]

Hi all, I found this article by Rail magazine - https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/more-new-trains-on-lner-wish-list

It details LNER wanting 6-8 new trains, but unable to obtain them under their current contract, and requiring a new one to be made. That being the case, due to an EU regulation, they'll need to be an 'open competition'?

My query is how could LNER reasonably justify choosing someone else to make a mere 6-8 trains of a different sort - removing the flushness of the fleet, maintenance on different trains, and requiring driver training and crew training on different trains, versus just having a couple more of what they already have?

The article is below -

LNER has revealed it is in the market for new trains, despite only just starting to introduce its new Hitachi Azumas.

Engineering Director John Doughty told RAIL that the operator needs more vehicles to meet the requirements of the planned timetable upgrade in 2021.

Initially the plan was to retain Class 91s with shorter rakes of Mk 4s that would be used on limited-stop expresses between London King’s Cross and Edinburgh. However, that has changed because the older stock would need significant rebuilding and refurbishment following a period out of traffic.

Doughty said: “We will need new trains to support the timetable change, otherwise it will be tight.”

He explained that “slightly more than six” would be required, but did not give a definitive number. These would likely be ten-car trains. LNER later confirmed the figure was could be from six to eight.

Ideally, the company would like to increase its existing Hitachi order. However, the operator must comply with European Union regulations which decrees there must be an open competition. Doughty said there was no option for additional Azumas, and that the 65 on order would be the only ones from that contract.

 

[thejuggler]

It isn't difficult to have an open competition which means only a single company bids. All down to how good the person writing the tender documents is.

 

[Jonny]

It isn't difficult to have an open competition which means only a single company bids. All down to how good the person writing the tender documents is.

Especially if a high level of compatibility is specified. I believe that Virgin did something similar with the second batch of Pendolinos.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Could simply be 801, but a new subclass.

True.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I think these will be 2 lots of 5 car sets together to for 10 coaches

 

[507 001]

I know of a couple of rakes of Mk4s sitting around that might do the job?

 

[hexagon789]

I think these will be 2 lots of 5 car sets together to for 10 coaches

I got the impression they were full 10-car sets, though the article does state that's simply 'likely'.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I don't see why they couldn't put out a tender for trains built to a specification so detailed that it would make them practically identcal to the existing fleet - if that's what they want/need. And if {insert random train building firm that's not Hitachi} chooses to bid - all well and good.

 

[yorksrob]

Good news, if it happens, especially if it means that the production line keeps open and there's scope for more AT300s for GWR/ TPE/ EMR/ HT in the next year or two (which leaves the market open for other customers too...)



Worth highlighting the above, given the regular ideas on here for tarting up ancient stock and trying to find a future for it (if even the thirty year old 225s are not worth trying to upgrade)

That is very strange reasoning though.

If you've had rolling stock sitting around in storage for a few years then i could understand it, however given that the existing stock is in service now and would have a guaranteed future, it would be relatively easy to keep it ticking over.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

If it’s an Edinburgh ‘premier’ service, you’re not going to want two piddly 5-cars. You’ll probably expect a full-length 10-car with a vastly improved First Class and catering facilities. The alternative, of course, is a three-class config.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

If it’s an Edinburgh ‘premier’ service, you’re not going to want two piddly 5-cars. You’ll probably expect a full-length 10-car with a vastly improved First Class and catering facilities. The alternative, of course, is a three-class config.

Your probably right.