EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Enthusiast]

Think the concern will be when different taxes and tariffs on goods crossing that border; both ways.

There are already different rates of excise on dutiable goods in the UK and Ireland (as there are in many EU countries). That's why people travel to NI from Ireland (and vice versa)for certain goods.

So come November 1st, with no border controls, what is to stop an EU national legally entering the Republic of Ireland, and then illegally entering Northern Ireland? How can you have control of your borders without border control?

Nothing - as there is nothing now. Because the UK and Ireland have agreed a Common Travel Area the UK is content that Ireland's border controls are sufficient. The criteria to enter Ireland will not change with Brexit so that same contentment will prevail. Because of that arrangement any entry to the UK from Ireland will not be "illegal". It's only illegal if the receiving nation decrees that it is. This situation prevailed long before the UK and Ireland became EU members (and in fact long before the EU or its predecessors existed). It was not modified by EU membership and does not need modification to accommodate Brexit.

How many times do we have to explain this?

Freedom of movement is exactly the same thing as the right to work and settle for those legally entitled to be in the bloc.

You don't have to explain it at all. Perhaps there is confusion or a different understanding in the terminology. Citizens of EU nations have the right to live and work anywhere in the EU. You can call that "freedom of movement" if that is your definition. But to travel between Schengen and non-Schengen countries EU citizens must pass through border control. They must produce a passport or recognised identity document to be admitted (either way). I do not call that "free movement" but I'll not argue the semantics.

The benefit claimed by the Brexiters was that we could stop this freedom of movement, and deny entry to the UK if we chose for those who have freedom of movement within the EU. But people with this freedom will still be able to enter the UK via Ireland, illegally but without much chance of being caught. They no longer have the right to work and settle but can still get here and work in the black economy or make a living from crime. This seems to me exactly the sort of thing Brexiters wanted to stop!

Brexiteers wanted principally to remove the right of 500m people to have the right to live and work in the UK. Brexit (done properly) will accomplish that. The reason why the UK has around 3m people from other EU countries living here is because they like the rights and privileges that our EU membership bestows on them. Those rights for those already settled here will not be removed. The Irish border has been more or less "open" for the best part of a hundred years. Ireland is not a Schengen member and has effective border controls. If people travel from mainland Europe to Ireland and then cross to the UK (such movement, incidentally, not being "illegal" as you suggest) and it becomes a problem then the UK will have to review its position on the border. Personally I do not think hoards of people will make that trip to try their luck in a non-EU country where they have no right to live or work. But you cannot simply say that Brexit should not be achieved because they might.

And, of course, none of this adequately explains why the people smugglers might have October 31st in their diaries.

 

[Bantamzen]

Brexiteers wanted principally to remove the right of 500m people to have the right to live and work in the UK. Brexit (done properly) will accomplish that. The reason why the UK has around 3m people from other EU countries living here is because they like the rights and privileges that our EU membership bestows on them..

Not forgetting of course that this works both ways, with over 750,000 Brits living and working in the EU at the last count…..

 

[Enthusiast]

Not forgetting of course that this works both ways, with over 750,000 Brits living and working in the EU at the last count…..

Indeed. However, 750,000 imported to an area containing 500m people is not quite so much of a problem as 3.2m imported to an area containing around 60m. But I doubt, whatever way Brexit is delivered, that anything will happen to reduce the rights of either group.

 

[anme]

Indeed. However, 750,000 imported to an area containing 500m people is not quite so much of a problem as 3.2m imported to an area containing around 60m. But I doubt, whatever way Brexit is delivered, that anything will happen to reduce the rights of either group.

Absolute and offensive nonsense. British people living in the EU will lose their freedom of movement rights - i.e. the right to live and work in all countries of the European Union.

 

[Bantamzen]

Indeed. However, 750,000 imported to an area containing 500m people is not quite so much of a problem as 3.2m imported to an area containing around 60m. But I doubt, whatever way Brexit is delivered, that anything will happen to reduce the rights of either group.

How are EU citizens any more of a problem to us than ours are to them?

 

[Howardh]

Indeed. However, 750,000 imported to an area containing 500m people is not quite so much of a problem as 3.2m imported to an area containing around 60m. But I doubt, whatever way Brexit is delivered, that anything will happen to reduce the rights of either group.

Thing is you can still "control" immigration and have completely zero border infrastructure anywhere. How?
Well, if it's to stop EU's and anyone else applying for jobs and taking housing etc then you don't have to check them at the border - let them in but they can only obtain both/either with a valid permit, shown at the job application stage or to the landlord. That IS turning landlords and employers into immigration officials by the back door, but they are that anyway for non EU's?
That means the Irish/UK border wouldn't be an issue, we simply allow everyone in unchecked, then tourists can tour, shoppers shop yet they can't get jobs, rent a house or use our benefits system without permit.
That of course applies to us going over there.
What a boost it would be to our tourism industry if there were no, zero hold-ups at our airports and ports for EU's coming here and ourselves returning home.
There is simply no need to check any flights coming in from the EU; we could quite happily leave the EU but become a Schengen member - and if we retained membership of the Single Market/Customs Union then the Irish/UK border issue vanishes.
Alternatively we impose border checks, so the unwanted EU terrorist/rapist comes in via Ireland unchecked. So what's the point??

 

[Howardh]

Absolute and offensive nonsense. British people living in the EU will lose their freedom of movement rights - i.e. the right to live and work in all countries of the European Union.

They may not; I think if they are currently settled they, like EU's currently here, will not lose their FoM rights. Eg a Brit living in France should still have the right to move to another EU country, a valuable right if their job demands a move, and the same for those living here.
HOWEVER I am not totally sure and happy to be corrected. If it is as you say, that would be astonishing, and unacceptable.

 

[anme]

They may not; I think if they are currently settled they, like EU's currently here, will not lose their FoM rights. Eg a Brit living in France should still have the right to move to another EU country, a valuable right if their job demands a move, and the same for those living here.
HOWEVER I am not totally sure and happy to be corrected. If it is as you say, that would be astonishing, and unacceptable.

Unfortunately this is not true. Even under Theresa May's deal, UK citizens living in the rest of the EU only keep their rights in their country of residence at the end of the transition period, and will lose their right to onward movement. The British government (and, let's be honest, much of the British people) have abandoned their own citizens.

 

[anme]

What a boost it would be to our tourism industry if there were no, zero hold-ups at our airports and ports for EU's coming here and ourselves returning home.

I wonder if British people are aware of the tourist visa application process for the UK, which applies to most of the population of the world. It's worth reading the overview here:
https://www.visatraveler.com/visa-guides/united-kingdom-visa-requirements/

It's pretty shocking. It's hard to pick the worst aspect, but something that says a lot is the fees to make a query about your application - if you need to send a query about your application by e-mail, it will cost you £5.48, and by phone £1.37 per minute (plus network costs).

 

[Howardh]

I wonder if British people are aware of the tourist visa application process for the UK, which applies to most of the population of the world. It's worth reading the overview here:
https://www.visatraveler.com/visa-guides/united-kingdom-visa-requirements/

It's pretty shocking. It's hard to pick the worst aspect, but something that says a lot is the fees to make a query about your application - if you need to send a query about your application by e-mail, it will cost you £5.48, and by phone £1.37 per minute (plus network costs).

The good news is EU's shouldn't need visas just to tour here. In fact they will be better off than us as we will be required to complete the ETIAS bureaucracy, whereas as we don't have the equivalent for EU's coming here, they will be allowed passage with just an ID card.

Let's face it, when they have most of the EU available to them to travel to with no ID/passport necessary at all, EU tourists are hardly gonna fork out and go through the process for a pass/visa to come here, are they? Now THAT would well and truly be shooting ourselves in both feet.

Of course if we DID impose extra bureaucracy and cost on them, they could simply travel to the RoI and cross over from there into the north and into GB from there, for free and unchecked.

You really couldn't make Brexit up if you tried.

 

[Carlisle]

The UK has chosen not to enforce a border with Ireland for a hundred years (apart from briefly and sparsely during the "Troubles"). .

I’ve spoken to people who remember customs checks on cross border trains, long before the troubles began .

 

[DarloRich]

we are ruled by simpletons

Cabinet minister Michael Gove says the EU "seem to be refusing to negotiate with the UK" over a new Brexit deal.

Mr Gove, who is responsible for no-deal planning, said he was "deeply saddened" that Brussels was, in his words, saying "no, we don't want to talk".

It comes after the EU said UK demands to remove the Irish backstop from Theresa May's deal were unacceptable.

Irish PM Leo Varadkar has reiterated that the withdrawal deal, including the backstop, cannot be renegotiated.
.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49251257

 

[nlogax]

This is all part of the lead-up to the UK Government shifting the blame of a (now inevitable) no-deal Brexit towards the EU. Magically..mysteriously, this will now turn out to be the EU's fault and not this country's insane, deluded and hopeless hard Brexiteers who are now running things.

 

[YorkshireBear]

we are ruled by simpletons



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49251257

They are just positioning to blame no deal on EU if it goes wrong. I sense the current government actually want no-deal and just trying to position themselves as it not being there fault!

I like the logic though. We want something the EU has made clear for 3 years they won't accept, so it is their fault for not re-entering negotiations not our fault...

You couldn't make it up, although sadly after last few years you could.

 

[Howardh]

This is all part of the lead-up to the UK Government shifting the blame of a (now inevitable) no-deal Brexit towards the EU. Magically..mysteriously, this will now turn out to be the EU's fault and not this country's insane, deluded and hopeless hard Brexiteers who are now running things.

I'm surprised the EU hasn't taken the blame for England's appalling batting performance, and clearly Anderson wouldn't have been injured if we were free of Brussels interference.

 

[DerekC]

I'm surprised the EU hasn't taken the blame for England's appalling batting performance, and clearly Anderson wouldn't have been injured if we were free of Brussels interference.

Never mind - Mr Trump will let us play baseball - we might even get our own minor league.

 

[EM2]

Nothing - as there is nothing now.

But now, both states are EU members therefore an EU national is entitled to freely move between the two states.

Because the UK and Ireland have agreed a Common Travel Area the UK is content that Ireland's border controls are sufficient.

The privilege of free movement in Common Travel Area only extends to nationals of the countries covered by it:
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7661

Nationals of Common Travel Area (CTA) countries can travel freely within the CTA without being subject to passport controls. The arrangements for non-CTA nationals are more complex. Although there are minimal immigration checks for journeys started within the CTA, non-CTA nationals must have the relevant immigration permission for the country they are seeking to enter. Until the UK exits the EU, citizens of EEA member states have prevailing rights of entry and residence in the UK and Ireland under EU ‘free movement’ law.

The criteria to enter Ireland will not change with Brexit so that same contentment will prevail. Because of that arrangement any entry to the UK from Ireland will not be "illegal". It's only illegal if the receiving nation decrees that it is. This situation prevailed long before the UK and Ireland became EU members (and in fact long before the EU or its predecessors existed). It was not modified by EU membership and does not need modification to accommodate Brexit.

But the border before the Good Friday Agreement was enforced. There were border posts and check points, as had been previously shown in the thread.
And also from the previous link (my emphasis):

The future of the CTA post-Brexit is uncertain. The UK and Irish governments remain united in their desire to maintain the CTA and EU negotiating guidelines state that the Union will respect such bilateral agreements. Nevertheless expert evidence received by Parliamentary select committees warned that Brexit poses “a real and substantive threat to the very existence” of the CTA and cautioned that the maintenance of current arrangements should not be taken for granted.

Whilst there is widespread political agreement that there should be no ‘hard border’ in Ireland, the absence of controls on the Irish border post-Brexit would make it unique amongst the EU’s external borders.

 

[Bantamzen]

They are just positioning to blame no deal on EU if it goes wrong. I sense the current government actually want no-deal and just trying to position themselves as it not being there fault!

I like the logic though. We want something the EU has made clear for 3 years they won't accept, so it is their fault for not re-entering negotiations not our fault...

You couldn't make it up, although sadly after last few years you could.

You mean when it goes wrong surely? This mess of a government already know time is limited for them, so as you say they are positioning to blame all and sundry for something that was all but impossible given the timescales. The EU might be willing to go back the negotiating table if they didn't recognise a cabinet deeply, and stupidly committed to a no deal scenario. And why would they? There is nothing for them to gain, and trying to negotiate with a government trying to appease the mouth-frothers amongst the leavers whilst lining their pockets with the family silver would be like trying to convince a glaring of cats to play nice with each other. No, there will be no further negotiations or deals, just months more of chaos and confusion before the inevitable General Election.

 

[fowler9]

The country is spiralling down the toilet turning in to a quasi USA. I am currently managing to blank it out.

 

[Enthusiast]

There is simply no need to check any flights coming in from the EU; we could quite happily leave the EU but become a Schengen member - and if we retained membership of the Single Market/Customs Union then the Irish/UK border issue vanishes.

You mean rather than leave the EU, simply remove our name from the list of members? Schengen, the Customs Union and the Single Market are all manifestations of the EU institutions that people who voted to leave want nothing to do with. Joining Schengen and remaining in the CU and SM would be a worse situation than we have now.

Alternatively we impose border checks, so the unwanted EU terrorist/rapist comes in via Ireland unchecked. So what's the point??

The notion that vast numbers of tourists, economic migrants criminals and terrorists will make the journey to the UK via Ireland is fanciful. Tourists will not need to because perfectly sensible arrangements will be made for their entry to the UK, whatever form Brexit takes. People from outside the EU are allowed to visit the UK now. Similar arrangements will be made for EU citizens after we have left. Illegal migrants will not make the trip. They don't now - it's easier to buy a rubber boat and cross the Channel rather than do the same to get to Dun Laoghaire. Criminals and terrorists will always gain entry if they are determined and similarly they don't currently travel to Ireland to do so. There is effectively no border in Ireland now but, as far as I know, vast numbers of people seeking illicit entry to the UK do not so via that border now so why should any more do so post Brexit? Which brings me back to my original point - why do the people smugglers have October 31st in their diaries?

There seems widespread consensus on here that we cannot leave the EU because it is too tricky. That is the deliberate strategy of the EU so that once in, it's hard to get out. It's only an excuse for not leaving - it's not a good reason for remaining.

 

[EM2]

There seems widespread consensus on here that we cannot leave the EU because it is too tricky. That is the deliberate strategy of the EU so that once in, it's hard to get out. It's only an excuse for not leaving - it's not a good reason for remaining.

It's not tricky at all. Send an Article 50 notification and leave, that's all that needs to be done. Yet the UK has not done that. Why might that be?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We are ruled by simpletons.

Perhaps we are a nation of simpletons with no understanding of the global economy, noting that it was electorate, not the leaders, who cast their votes in the manner that they did during the referendum vote.

 

[krus_aragon]

You mean rather than leave the EU, simply remove our name from the list of members? Schengen, the Customs Union and the Single Market are all manifestations of the EU institutions that people who voted to leave want nothing to do with. Joining Schengen and remaining in the CU and SM would be a worse situation than we have now.

For the sake of clarification, are you referring to "now" as in our current membership of the EU, or specifically the "now" of the post-Article-50 negotiation period? (I'm guessing the former, but don't want to make assumptions.)

There seems widespread consensus on here that we cannot leave the EU because it is too tricky. That is the deliberate strategy of the EU so that once in, it's hard to get out. It's only an excuse for not leaving - it's not a good reason for remaining.

It's fair to say that's been the deliberate strategy of the EU: until 2009 (Treaty of Lisbon, which includes a certain article 50) there was no method of leaving the EU. Those at the heart of the "European project" tend to be the ones that believe in it, and probably found it hard to conceive that anyone would want to leave.

 

[Carlisle]

The country is spiralling down the toilet .

We now appear to have an unelected de facto Brexit party government in power, is there actually anything significant Nigel would do differently to Boris right now we’re he the PM .?

 

[krus_aragon]

We now appear to have an unelected de facto Brexit party government in power, is there actually anything significant Nigel would do differently to Boris right now we’re he actually the PM .?

All I can think of is that the former wouldn't want to be seen seeking renegotiation of the terms of leaving.

While Mr Johnson wants to keep more than just the "no-dealers" on his side, I think Mr Farage would pull the drawbridge up now and be done with it (in so much as he could).

 

[Howardh]

You mean rather than leave the EU, simply remove our name from the list of members? Schengen, the Customs Union and the Single Market are all manifestations of the EU institutions that people who voted to leave want nothing to do with. Joining Schengen and remaining in the CU and SM would be a worse situation than we have now.



The notion that vast numbers of tourists, economic migrants criminals and terrorists will make the journey to the UK via Ireland is fanciful. Tourists will not need to because perfectly sensible arrangements will be made for their entry to the UK, whatever form Brexit takes. People from outside the EU are allowed to visit the UK now. Similar arrangements will be made for EU citizens after we have left. Illegal migrants will not make the trip. They don't now - it's easier to buy a rubber boat and cross the Channel rather than do the same to get to Dun Laoghaire. Criminals and terrorists will always gain entry if they are determined and similarly they don't currently travel to Ireland to do so. There is effectively no border in Ireland now but, as far as I know, vast numbers of people seeking illicit entry to the UK do not so via that border now so why should any more do so post Brexit? Which brings me back to my original point - why do the people smugglers have October 31st in their diaries?

There seems widespread consensus on here that we cannot leave the EU because it is too tricky. That is the deliberate strategy of the EU so that once in, it's hard to get out. It's only an excuse for not leaving - it's not a good reason for remaining.

How can I get this point across politely? We are not dealing with illegal non-EU people. We are dealing with people who are EU, currently legal who, mainly because of criminal activity, may become illegal after Brexit when we can ban them.
Any such person can avoid the ban by entering the RO I and crossing into the UK unchallenged. Admittedly if we were still in the EU they could come, but as we leave I thought that was one of things you wanted us to do, keep them out? An open irish border fails to do that.And the reason there is no mass EU immigration via the Ireland route now is simple, everyone's legal and can come in via any GB port. Now please, is that clear enough?

 

[edwin_m]

An interesting point. Are there statistics available that show both deaths and severe medical conditions in the USA as a result of eating cooked chlorinated chicken?

Accoding to this website the incidence of Salmonella in the USA is 0.51%: http://www.cureresearch.com/s/salmonella_food_poisoning/stats-country_printer.htm

The following table attempts to extrapolate the above incidence rate for Salmonella food poisoning to the populations of various countries and regions. As discussed above, these incidence extrapolations for Salmonella food poisoning are only estimates and may have limited relevance to the actual incidence of Salmonella food poisoning in any region

- so don't put any weight on the figures for other countries from this site as they are just multiplying the USA incidence by that country's population.

According to the below there were 14.78 reports in the UK per 100000 population in 2015 and it is estimated there are 4.7 unreported cases for each reported case. I make this to be about 0.08%, so way below the US figure.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...ent_data/file/598401/Salmonella_2016_Data.pdf

This doesn't of course say anything about whether the cases come from chicken, but it does give some pause for thought about likely relative standards of food safety.

Perhaps we are a nation of simpletons with no understanding of the global economy, noting that it was electorate, not the leaders, who cast their votes in the manner that they did during the referendum vote.

The average voter has better things to do than understanding the global economy. But politicians really should have that sort of understanding before they pronounce on the subject.

Unfortunately some of them have chosen to ignore the facts. Instead they have hoodwinked and deceived the British public with distortion, innuendo and outright lies about the alleged evils of the EU and the claimed benefits of being outside it, both of which are mostly illusory. There are two possible explanations: extreme stupidity or malice.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The average voter has better things to do than understanding the global economy. But politicians really should have that sort of understanding before they pronounce on the subject. Unfortunately some of them have chosen to ignore the facts. Instead they have hoodwinked and deceived the British public with distortion, innuendo and outright lies about the alleged evils of the EU and the claimed benefits of being outside it, both of which are mostly illusory. There are two possible explanations: extreme stupidity or malice.

I assure you that my good lady wife (77) and I (74) are intelligent enough to have considered matters from our own researches prior to the referendum when we both came to a decision to vote remain. It is not a case of having "better things to do", but the ability to mentally multi-task and to be able to consider many matters relevant at any time comes normal to both of us

Again I will reiterate that although the remain vote was lost at the time of the referendum, it was a democratic vote of the electorate.

 

[chris11256]

The issue I have with this is we seem to be going in circles. A significant number of mp’s say they’re against no deal, but they’re also completely against the only deal on offer.

So what happens if remainers win in a no confidence vote September/October and Borris is out, we ask for another extension and repeat the process in 6 months time? Personally I’m for remain, but am sick of parliament saying what it doesn’t want, with very little on what it does want.

 

[berneyarms]

How can I get this point across politely? We are not dealing with illegal non-EU people. We are dealing with people who are EU, currently legal who, mainly because of criminal activity, may become illegal after Brexit when we can ban them.
Any such person can avoid the ban by entering the RO I and crossing into the UK unchallenged. Admittedly if we were still in the EU they could come, but as we leave I thought that was one of things you wanted us to do, keep them out? An open irish border fails to do that.And the reason there is no mass EU immigration via the Ireland route now is simple, everyone's legal and can come in via any GB port. Now please, is that clear enou. gh?

You do realise that an immense amount of data is shared between the Irish and UK governments about who has entered either jurisdiction from outside the two countries. That facilitates intelligence led Border Force spot checks within the UK for illegal immigration.

The notion that there’s going to be mass illegal immigration across the Irish-UK land border really is rather fanciful to say the least.

Again the real issues facing both countries with regard to the border concerning is the impact on trade.