HS2 Route - revealed Thursday 11th

[Pumbaa]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/mar/04/heathrow-high-speed-rail

The government is preparing to publish its vision for a high-speed rail network, and is considering a London-to-Birmingham route with no direct link to Heathrow airport.

London's Euston station has been earmarked as the main terminal, according to rail industry sources. But the transport secretary, Lord Adonis, believes Old Oak Common will be just as popular with passengers because of the Crossrail connection that will ferry passengers to Heathrow in about five minutes, or Liverpool Street in the centre of the capital's financial district in around 30 minutes.

A site near Birmingham international airport is also being considered for a parkway station on a route that will link both cities by a 50-minute train ride, with a further terminal at a new site in the heart of Birmingham. The main body of the line would then carry on from Birmingham international through the Trent valley, and join the west coast mainline north of the city to travel to Manchester and Scotland at conventional speeds until the next phase of the network is built.

The main planning concern for the first phase is how to push trains through the Chiltern hills in Buckinghamshire without causing excessive damage to an area of outstanding natural beauty. The government will put the routes out to a public consultation in the autumn.

The Tories, who have pledged to build a high speed network instead of a third runway at Heathrow, have reserved the right to alter the HS2 route if they win the general election.

 

[Failed Unit]

The main planning concern for the first phase is how to push trains through the Chiltern hills in Buckinghamshire without causing excessive damage to an area of outstanding natural beauty. The government will put the routes out to a public consultation in the autumn.

Never seem to delay the M40 much!

 

[The Planner]

Took 5 years from public inquiry until the M40 through Aston Hill cutting and on up towards Oxford opened in 1974. If it was today it would either not be built or put in a tunnel (which was one of the original plans for that section.)

 

[TDK]

It's a great idea but just before a general election? We will see if all is the same after June if the government are re-elected.

 

[Burkitt]

Possibly reading too much detail into this, but do the plans imply two types of train will be needed? From what I have read the core London - Birmingham route can only be justified if ultra high capacity European loading gauge double deck trains are used to make maximum use of the available paths. But trains to run to the destinations beyond HS2 via the WCML would have to be UK loading gauge, so a second type of new high speed train would also be needed.
Mind you, even keeping to the scheduled 2025 opening the train orders won't need to be placed for another decade.

 

[gwr2006]

"The main planning concern for the first phase is how to push trains through the Chiltern hills in Buckinghamshire"...

What can we read into this in terms of the minutely planned route between London and Birmingham. A London terminus at Euston, a station in Old Oak COmmon and a parkway station at Birmingham International are mentioned but where would it go in-between, any ideas?

 

[The Planner]

Speculation, but id make it shadow the M40 as far as possible swing out towards Haddenham, over Ashendon, up the old GCR past Brackley swing it back from south of Woodford Halse back to the M40 around Fenny Compton where it shadows it and the M42, International Parkway, old trackbed from Hampton in Arden to Whitacre, Kingsbury, back to shadow the M42 and join it up around Polesworth.

 

[the sniper]

What can we read into this in terms of the minutely planned route between London and Birmingham. A London terminus at Euston, a station in Old Oak COmmon and a parkway station at Birmingham International are mentioned but where would it go in-between, any ideas?

I don't think it'll stop anywhere in between, it shouldn't do anyway.

Being from Birmingham I'm incredibly excited about this project, I don't actually like the whole High Speed line idea and I doubt I'll use it more then once (I'll stick to the Victorian lines ), but it'll be interesting to see it being built and at it can only be a good thing for Birmingham.

I'm sure the Birmingham station will be HERE, I reckon it'll come right up to the Moor Street Ringway and run the length of Albert Street to the north of the site, thus the station will be on the site as the old Curzon Street station. Duddeston yard could be used to stable High Speed trains! That'd be an unbelievable sight for those of use who can still remember the sight of a Class 8 trundling around the place! (The sight might not be long enough though... :cry: ).

It'll be fascinating to see the route they've planned, just so long as it doesn't lead to my house being bulldozed!

 

[A60K]

Possibly reading too much detail into this, but do the plans imply two types of train will be needed? From what I have read the core London - Birmingham route can only be justified if ultra high capacity European loading gauge double deck trains are used to make maximum use of the available paths. But trains to run to the destinations beyond HS2 via the WCML would have to be UK loading gauge, so a second type of new high speed train would also be needed.

The TGV network in France operates with several different types of train, so it wouldn't be unusual. Taking a Franco-centric view, this would be a bit like how the LGV Nord opened - standard units for Paris (=London) to Lille (=Birmingham) services, and smaller gauge units for services extended to England via the South Eastern main line (=Scotland via the West Coast main line)!

 

[Ivo]

I don't think it'll stop anywhere in between, it shouldn't do anyway.

...

It'll be fascinating to see the route they've planned, just so long as it doesn't lead to my house being bulldozed!

Oh, wouldn't we all think that if our homes were liable to destruction...! But with regards to intermediate stops between London and Birmingham, I agree that there is nowhere sufficiently large or important to warrant a truly High-Speed service. But were there not plans for a stop in or near Bicester to have an interchange with the East West Rail Link (if it ever happens...!), thus providing "direct" connections with the GWL, the MML and the ECML, among others?

 

[jon0844]

Would it not make sense to have HS1 link up to HS2, so you could have international services continue on? That would take off pressure from St Pancras International somewhat.

Hopefully by 2025, we'd have got rid of the border controls like the rest of Europe too.

 

[stut]

But with regards to intermediate stops between London and Birmingham, I agree that there is nowhere sufficiently large or important to warrant a truly High-Speed service.

No, but if the line's there, it would certainly be possible to run a service along the lines of the Tokaido Shinkansen's 'Kodama' train - station loops for intermediate stops (interchanges and newly-developed commuter hubs) and a price reduction vs the faster trains for those going on longer routes. The system works rather well there.

I doubt, however, that this fits into the "headline journey times to/from London are all that count" mentality of the DfT.

 

[WatcherZero]

Im curious whether they are going to go for costly 4 tracking from start (doubtful), 2 tracking with space set aside for easy 4 tracking (probable, though cost is greater than 1st and 3rd option long term) or just 2 tracking throughout with no provision being made for 4 tracking (very expensive later, very cheap initially).

Since their targetting 36tph from the start including adding many WCML services directly on at birmingham and new partial HS services, it may be wise to build the capacity in now.

 

[bengley]

I like how they call the chilterns an area of outstanding natural beauty when really if any of the silly old people in the chiltern area (I live in Chesham) went up to the lake district they'd realise the chilterns look like cowpat.

 

[Ivo]

I like how they call the chilterns an area of outstanding natural beauty when really if any of the silly old people in the chiltern area (I live in Chesham) went up to the lake district they'd realise the chilterns look like cowpat.

That's not actually all that bad in comparison to some parts of the country...!

 

[Drsatan]

Im curious whether they are going to go for costly 4 tracking from start (doubtful), 2 tracking with space set aside for easy 4 tracking (probable, though cost is greater than 1st and 3rd option long term) or just 2 tracking throughout with no provision being made for 4 tracking (very expensive later, very cheap initially).

Since their targetting 36tph from the start including adding many WCML services directly on at birmingham and new partial HS services, it may be wise to build the capacity in now.

Instead of four-tracking the railway, an easier option, especially as the railway will be built to UIC loading gauge, would be to operate double-deck trains from London to Birmingham. The TGV 'Duplex' sets used on LGV Sud-Est services carry 40% more passengers than a single-decker TGV, yet only produce 4% more drag. And they only have an axleload of 17 tons

For services beyond Birmingham on the WCML (in fact, I support NR's proposal that the line should carry on to Glasgow, Manchester and Liverpool instead of stopping at Birmingham), a series of high-speed trains built to the UK loading gauge would be needed. However, if double-decker trains are going to operate on any 'classic' lines, which would be obligatory to gain access to HS2, then those stretches of 'classic' line would need gauge clearance.

Rather than go to the expense of designing a completely new train, any train on the HS2 should be an existing design built under license in the UK:

• Alstom's AGV
• Siemen's Velaro

I've no idea where intermediate stations could be (depends as to the alignment the line will take), but I'd suggest that a branch to Oxford be built from HS2 since that would help relieve congestion on Oxford-Paddington commuter trains. I believe when the LGV Sud-Est was under construction in France a branch was built to serve Dijon too.

 

[WatcherZero]

Double deckers maybe an option, they are thinking capacity of 1100 per set, which is twice as much as the 10 car Velaro (650) and the 14 car AGV (650)

 

[The Planner]

I. Duddeston yard could be used to stable High Speed trains! That'd be an unbelievable sight for those of use who can still remember the sight of a Class 8 trundling around the place! (The sight might not be long enough though... :cry: ).

London Midland are going to be using Duddeston as a depot in the next few years, so HS2 will have to boot them out first.

 

[TDK]

Double deckers maybe an option, they are thinking capacity of 1100 per set, which is twice as much as the 10 car Velaro (650) and the 14 car AGV (650)

They can't even fill the 9 car pendolinos

 

[Pumbaa]

They can't even fill the 9 car pendolinos

They really can. Try going anywhere near Manchester or up to Lancaster anytime near the beginning and ends of the day!

 

[jopsuk]

I'm sure I've seen mention of Alstom having plans for AGV Duplex- would certainly make sense! Think the plan to fit an AGV bogie to one end of a TGV Duplex carriage rake and run semi-permanent doubles with only two power cars has been dropped though- but there are certainly a lot of services on the PSE line run with double duplex. Not quite as high capacity as pair of E4 series Shinkansen, but they're "only" 150mph units.

 

[Geezertronic]

They can't even fill the 9 car pendolinos

What's the point of extending 30 odd sets to 11 cars then?

 

[Burkitt]

I'm sure I've seen mention of Alstom having plans for AGV Duplex

There is mention of it in this article http://sncfpassion.com/2008/12/17/agv-duplex/ and this one http://www.e24.fr/entreprises/trans...lstom-va-construire-un-AGV-a-deux-etages.html , both in French. The gist of it seems to be that SNCF want double decker trains, and what SNCF wants SNCF gets, as they are Alstom's major high speed customer.
Development will take a while but it's ten years until train orders will need to be placed so there's plenty of time.