The Right To be asked to show your ticket

[Paul1804]

An unusual one which I have been informed may not in under the circumstances mean that the bylaw is as open and shut as it seems.

Section 17 subsection (2). A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

This section was i assume was written a long time ago like most of the bylaw. I understand this was written before the introduction of the Human Rights Act.

I would assume that any authorised person is allowed to exercise and discharge the right to use this authority in a fair and just manner without prejudice or by treating everyone the same.


If a person feels that the authorised person, is abusing the authority placed on them, or is being unjust by treating them differently to everyone else. My question is. Can you refuse to show your ticket at that point and inform the authorised person of the following. Unless there is a security issue, then you would be refraining from showing your ticket at that point.

"You, however, make it very clear to them that you are willing to show your ticket under the same terms and conditions as everyone else."

I won't go into how bad i was treated, as it was caught on camera. I was humiliated for nearly two hours in front of everyone at the station.

I will also point out that I was just inside the door of the station, getting a coffee when this started. I was nowhere near the platforms, and the platform which i required to use was the other side of the station only accessible via a bridge.

I am informed that the station is public property but managed by Virgin. There are no terms and conditions on display anywhere in the station.
At no point did the member of Virgin who first approached do anything other than ask me if i had a ticket. i replied, yes.

At no point did they or the police Inform me that they had the authority to ask me for my ticket.

The police came over straight away and kept asking if i had a ticket to which I replied yes. They just kept saying " We don't believe you " They persisted in asking me for my ticket to which i ignored them after i made it very clear that i felt intimidated, picked on and was being treated and asked for their supervisor.

Before you say the obvious " Why didn't I just show my ticket."
I am not sure they would even have believed it was real.

I also feel that there was some racial profiling central to the whole thing.

 

[yorkie]

Why would they not have believed it was real?

It's not possible to have any meaningful discussion without the details; each case is different.

If the intention is to have a hypertothetical discussion about circumstances that we are all imagining in a slightly different way, then I would question the value of that; the general rule would be to simply show the ticket unless there is a very good reason not to.

For a situation to last two hours I would have to wonder if perhaps both parties could have handled it better, but as no detail is known there isn't really anything meaningful we can say.

 

[cuccir]

As Yorkie says, we can't advise you very well without a fuller account of what happened. We can't in particular advise you if you did anything that might have reasonably raised suspicion.

But to clarify a few issues raised:

• If you genuinely believe that there was racial profiling going on, then it is the Equality Act and not the Human Rights Act under which you would consider making a complaint
• No, I don't have any understanding that either the Equality Act or the Human Rights Act would give you the right not to show your ticket. It's not infringing any Human Rights to ask you for the ticket. In terms of the Equality Act, again, you might raise a complaint if you felt that you were being discriminated against, but that doesn't remove the need to show a ticket when asked
• In terms of the station being public property; most are not, they are owned by Network Rail, a private company. This doesn't stop the Equality Act from applying (or indeed the Human Rights Act though again I can't see why it would in this case) as it applies in private spaces; and anyway it would be defined in law as a "public place", that is, somewhere the public is generally given free and unhindered access

Again without knowing the station or in more detail what happened we can't really advise further.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

As various people have already said above, to give advice we will need a full description of what happened - details of where and when would be good, but please avoid anything that would identify you as an individual. But on what you have told us, I think you may be overstating your rights under the Human Rights Act. You might want to look at what Liberty (a pro-Human Rights organisation) have to say on their website at https://www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/human-rights/human-rights-act:

THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACT IS A UK LAW PASSED IN 1998. IT LETS YOU DEFEND YOUR RIGHTS IN UK COURTS AND COMPELS PUBLIC ORGANISATIONS – INCLUDING THE GOVERNMENT, POLICE AND LOCAL COUNCILS – TO TREAT EVERYONE EQUALLY, WITH FAIRNESS, DIGNITY AND RESPECT.

The Human Rights Act protects all of us – young and old, rich and poor. Hundreds of people use it to upold their rights and achieve justice every year.

WHO CAN USE THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACT?
The Human Rights Act may be used by every person resident in the United Kingdom regardless of whether or not they are a British citizen or a foreign national, a child or an adult, a prisoner or a member of the public. It can even be used by companies or organisations (like Liberty).

WHAT DOES THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACT ACTUALLY DO?
The human rights contained within this law are based on the articles of the European Convention on Human Rights. The Act ‘gives further effect’ to rights and freedoms guaranteed under the European Convention. It means:

• Judges must read and give effect to other laws in a way which is compatible with Convention rights.
• It is unlawful for a public authority to act in a way which is incompatible with a Convention right.

(...)

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR ME?
If you can show that a public authority has interfered with any of the rights recognised by the Convention you can take action by:

• Writing to the public authority concerned to remind them of their legal obligations under the Human Rights Act and ask them to rectify the situation.
• Going to court, which may find that a particular action (or inaction) of a public authority is (or would be) unlawful. It can tell the public authority to stop interfering with your right or to take action to protect your right.
• If the court is satisfied that a law is incompatible with a Convention right, it may make a declaration of that incompatibility. This is a formal legal statement that the particular law interferes with human rights. It does not have immediate effect but strongly encourages Parliament to amend or repeal the law in question.

My understanding is that the Human Rights Act does not allow anyone just to ignore part of British law because they think it interferes with their human rights: what it does allow is you to go to court to have the existing law (in effect) overturned if the court agrees that there's a problem. So telling anyone that they can't require you to do something such as show them your railway ticket because of the Human Rights Act won't work, and as Virgin Trains aren't a public authority, they aren't limited by the rules requiring a public authority not to interfere with your 'rights recognised by the convention'.

 

[Paul1804]

Why would they not have believed it was real?

It's not possible to have any meaningful discussion without the details; each case is different.

If the intention is to have a hypertothetical discussion about circumstances that we are all imagining in a slightly different way, then I would question the value of that; the general rule would be to simply show the ticket unless there is a very good reason not to.

For a situation to last two hours I would have to wonder if perhaps both parties could have handled it better, but as no detail is known there isn't really anything meaningful we can say.

As Yorkie says, we can't advise you very well without a fuller account of what happened. We can't in particular advise you if you did anything that might have reasonably raised suspicion.

But to clarify a few issues raised:

• If you genuinely believe that there was racial profiling going on, then it is the Equality Act and not the Human Rights Act under which you would consider making a complaint
• No, I don't have any understanding that either the Equality Act or the Human Rights Act would give you the right not to show your ticket. It's not infringing any Human Rights to ask you for the ticket. In terms of the Equality Act, again, you might raise a complaint if you felt that you were being discriminated against, but that doesn't remove the need to show a ticket when asked
• In terms of the station being public property; most are not, they are owned by Network Rail, a private company. This doesn't stop the Equality Act from applying (or indeed the Human Rights Act though again I can't see why it would in this case) as it applies in private spaces; and anyway it would be defined in law as a "public place", that is, somewhere the public is generally given free and unhindered access

Again without knowing the station or in more detail what happened we can't really advise further.

As Yorkie says, we can't advise you very well without a fuller account of what happened. We can't in particular advise you if you did anything that might have reasonably raised suspicion.

But to clarify a few issues raised:

• If you genuinely believe that there was racial profiling going on, then it is the Equality Act and not the Human Rights Act under which you would consider making a complaint
• No, I don't have any understanding that either the Equality Act or the Human Rights Act would give you the right not to show your ticket. It's not infringing any Human Rights to ask you for the ticket. In terms of the Equality Act, again, you might raise a complaint if you felt that you were being discriminated against, but that doesn't remove the need to show a ticket when asked
• In terms of the station being public property; most are not, they are owned by Network Rail, a private company. This doesn't stop the Equality Act from applying (or indeed the Human Rights Act though again I can't see why it would in this case) as it applies in private spaces; and anyway it would be defined in law as a "public place", that is, somewhere the public is generally given free and unhindered access

Again without knowing the station or in more detail what happened we can't really advise further.

Well, are the T&C available of these companies. I have looked online. As strange as it is I have told you the facts I was arrested and charged

 

[yorkie]

Well, are the T&C available of these companies.

See: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf

As strange as it is I have told you the facts

There are insufficient facts to comment in any meaningful way. Unless you are prepared to provide more information I will lock this thread as there is nothing more we can say.

I was arrested and charged

In the absence of further information we have no reason to believe this was not the correct course of action to be taken.

 

[cuccir]

I have told you the facts I was arrested and charged

You haven't told us the facts, given that you did not tell us this in the first post. You haven't even told us the station that this was at, or for that matter what you were charged with!

Please read this post with guidelines as to what to write if you want advice. If you can't provide that information, I don't think there's much more we can add.

 

[Paul1804]

As various people have already said above, to give advice we will need a full description of what happened - details of where and when would be good, but please avoid anything that would identify you as an individual. But on what you have told us, I think you may be overstating your rights under the Human Rights Act. You might want to look at what Liberty (a pro-Human Rights organisation) have to say on their website at https://www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/human-rights/human-rights-act:


My understanding is that the Human Rights Act does not allow anyone just to ignore part of British law because they think it interferes with their human rights: what it does allow is you to go to court to have the existing law (in effect) overturned if the court agrees that there's a problem. So telling anyone that they can't require you to do something such as show them your railway ticket because of the Human Rights Act won't work, and as Virgin Trains aren't a public authority, they aren't limited by the rules requiring a public authority not to interfere with your 'rights recognised by the convention'.

Thank you and that makes sense. I, however, should point out that I at no point said that I would not show my ticket. What i stated very clearly was that for some reason I was being treated awfully, I was being singled out and treated very differently from everyone else around me. I was also fearful which is why I called the police ( Who obviously wouldn't attend ) They just kept saying that we don't believe that you have a ticket. I made it clear that I would show my ticket before i travelled just like everyone else in the station. I made it clear that before i approached the platform or boarded a train that i was very happy to show my ticket like everyone else.

 

[Paul1804]

See: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf

There are insufficient facts to comment in any meaningful way. Unless you are prepared to provide more information I will lock this thread as there is nothing more we can say.

In the absence of further information we have no reason to believe this was not the correct course of action to be taken.

What do you want to know

 

[yorkie]

Thank you and that makes sense. I, however, should point out that I at no point said that I would not show my ticket. What i stated very clearly was that for some reason I was being treated awfully, I was being singled out and treated very differently from everyone else around me.

I'm sorry to hear this happened however we do not know the detail of what led up to this, so I don't see how we can comment on it.

I was also fearful which is why I called the police ( Who obviously wouldn't attend )

But you said earlier that...

They just kept saying that we don't believe that you have a ticket. I made it clear that I would show my ticket before i travelled just like everyone else in the station. I made it clear that before i approached the platform or boarded a train that i was very happy to show my ticket like everyone else.

I don't understand what the problem is.

What do you want to know

If we are to comment on what allegedly happened we would need to know the details; it's pretty clear you are not going to supply the details, which is absolutely your right. But if you wish to seek advice, you will need to seek it elsewhere.

I suggest you consult a solicitor if you are being prosecuted.