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Which new DMUs have dynamic braking?

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Philip

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Just want to find out of the new generation of diesel units, which ones have just friction and which ones have a hydro-dynamic retarder? At the moment I know class 185s have it. Class 175s did have it and it was very noticeable, haven't heard it for nearly a year though - has it been isolated/broken?

Also do 170s, 180s and Voyagers have dynamic braking?
 
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starrymarkb

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Voyagers have rheostatic braking, the resistor grids are mounted on the roof for cooling (it was these that caused the sea wall issues), is also audible as a whine under braking.
 

royaloak

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There isnt anything with hydro dynamic brakes now, that was the APT, it is rheostatic braking where the traction motors are used to generate electricity which is dissipated (as heat) through a bank of resistors.
It is obviously only DEMUs (2xx classes) that can have this as they are the only ones with traction motors, a DMMU (1xx classes) has drive shafts similar to a car.
 

mumrar

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Whilst I know what royaloak says is right, today I found myself questioning the layout of some equipment (despite having seen a wheelset and traction motors off a train at central rivers). Someone who didnt know would surely think this unit shows driveshafts to each bogie??
www.trainpics.net/p63537866.html
 

Philip

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There isnt anything with hydro dynamic brakes now, that was the APT, it is rheostatic braking where the traction motors are used to generate electricity which is dissipated (as heat) through a bank of resistors.
It is obviously only DEMUs (2xx classes) that can have this as they are the only ones with traction motors, a DMMU (1xx classes) has drive shafts similar to a car.

Why do some classes have the engine rev up when braking and others just the noise of friction pads (15x mainly)? Drivers on other forums have said
some new gen DMUs do use hydro-dynamic brakes, something to do with the engine revving to operate fans to cool hot oil, ultimately it's there for high speed braking so the pads don't wear out.

On class 175s some units did this, others didn't which was a bit odd.
 

royaloak

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Whilst I know what royaloak says is right, today I found myself questioning the layout of some equipment (despite having seen a wheelset and traction motors off a train at central rivers). Someone who didnt know would surely think this unit shows driveshafts to each bogie??
www.trainpics.net/p63537866.html

It does show driveshafts going to the bogie, the traction motor is mounted on the body with the driveshaft taking the power to the bogie, this reduces the unsprung weight giving a smoother ride and also pays a lower access charge.

The 91s have the same set up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hydro-dynamic uses water hence hydro, Which classes then, they use dynamic (actually rheostatic) brakes which uses the trction motors to, oh the same as i wrote above!
 
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Sir_Clagalot

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It's probably likely to be a fluid of some form, specially designed for the job in hand, rather than just water. Proper name I suppose should be Hydraulic-dynamic brake
 

driver9000

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The APT had Hydro-Kinetic brakes. DMUs can and do have hydrodynamic braking the sound you hear is the coolers running to dissipate the heat generated, class 180s are HD fitted but the system was isolated years ago after it proved troublesome they now use the air brake only, class 185s use HD braking although it was isolated for leaf fall as an experiment but Sprinters and Pacers are air braked using tread brakes with no form of additional retarder. DEMUs and electric locos use rheostatic braking using resistance in the traction motors.

The system doesnt use water as it would evaporate after a single use but the official title is 'hydrodynamic' although it uses a high grade oil instead
 
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TDK

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There isnt anything with hydro dynamic brakes now, that was the APT, it is rheostatic braking where the traction motors are used to generate electricity which is dissipated (as heat) through a bank of resistors.
It is obviously only DEMUs (2xx classes) that can have this as they are the only ones with traction motors, a DMMU (1xx classes) has drive shafts similar to a car.

175's and 180's have hydro dynamic brakes, they do not have traction motors and use the gearbox to assist in braking down to 30mph where it is friction only
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The APT had Hydro-Kinetic brakes. DMUs can and do have hydrodynamic braking the sound you hear is the coolers running to dissipate the heat generated, class 180s are HD fitted but the system was isolated years ago after it proved troublesome they now use the air brake only, class 185s use HD braking although it was isolated for leaf fall as an experiment but Sprinters and Pacers are air braked using tread brakes with no form of additional retarder. DEMUs and electric locos use rheostatic braking using resistance in the traction motors.

The system doesnt use water as it would evaporate after a single use but the official title is 'hydrodynamic' although it uses a high grade oil instead

158's have disc brakes and so do 159's these are sprinters
 

Philip

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175's and 180's have hydro dynamic brakes, they do not have traction motors and use the gearbox to assist in braking down to 30mph where it is friction only
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or at least they did have them. I think the 180 problem was to do with the hot oil going where it shouldn't and overheating/burning the gearbox. Haven't heard of any recent serious problem 175's have had with it, not sure why it's not being used atm.
 

TDK

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Or at least they did have them. I think the 180 problem was to do with the hot oil going where it shouldn't and overheating/burning the gearbox. Haven't heard of any recent serious problem 175's have had with it, not sure why it's not being used atm.

The brake force on a 175 for friction brake is identical as hydro dynamic, it is a fine balance on replacing the pads more often or the excess fuel they use. I suppose by not using them they must be saving money on fuel and also maintenance. Whe I drove 175's most of them had the HD brakes working.
 

Philip

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The brake force on a 175 for friction brake is identical as hydro dynamic, it is a fine balance on replacing the pads more often or the excess fuel they use. I suppose by not using them they must be saving money on fuel and also maintenance. Whe I drove 175's most of them had the HD brakes working.

That seems the obvious reason now you've mentioned it. When did you drive 175s?
 
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The problem with the 180 H-brake was that the flexible hoses that take the oil to the heat exchanger couldn't handle thhe immense pressure under braking. Even for the short time the pipes would hold out, in the warmer months the heat from the transmission oil under braking would heat the coolant up so much under braking that it would shut the engine down. The 180 H-brake will never be re-commissioned.
 

ChrisCooper

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The brake force on a 175 for friction brake is identical as hydro dynamic, it is a fine balance on replacing the pads more often or the excess fuel they use. I suppose by not using them they must be saving money on fuel and also maintenance. Whe I drove 175's most of them had the HD brakes working.

The thing is brake pads are pretty cheap, and are fairly quick and easy to replace. Fuel these days is getting more and more expensive. I presume the fuel use comes from having to rev the engines up to operate the cooling fans. The airlines have the same issue, using reverse thrust on landing increases brake life, but uses more fuel and increases engine wear, as well as being noisy. Rising fuel costs coupled with increasing noise restrictions mean that planes rarely use more than idle reverse when landing, other than in wet conditions, which has no effect on fuel use or engine life. It's only real effect is to direct some of the thrust from the idling engines forwards, slightly aiding stopping. The A380 was actually not intended to have thrust reversers, but for certification did have to have them fitted, but only on the inner engines, and some smaller planes don't have them.
It's also true with road vehicles too. When I was learning to drive I was told to slow down on the brakes, not the gears, as it's cheaper and easier to replace brake pads than clutches. Even more true on Diesels as they don't actually have engine braking (unless specifically modified for engine braking). Engine brakes on diesels have the problem of being noisy (saw a coach today that must have had engine braking from the amount of noise it was making when slowing down).
 

kestrel

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The thing is brake pads are pretty cheap, and are fairly quick and easy to replace. Fuel these days is getting more and more expensive. I presume the fuel use comes from having to rev the engines up to operate the cooling fans. The airlines have the same issue, using reverse thrust on landing increases brake life, but uses more fuel and increases engine wear, as well as being noisy. Rising fuel costs coupled with increasing noise restrictions mean that planes rarely use more than idle reverse when landing, other than in wet conditions, which has no effect on fuel use or engine life. It's only real effect is to direct some of the thrust from the idling engines forwards, slightly aiding stopping. The A380 was actually not intended to have thrust reversers, but for certification did have to have them fitted, but only on the inner engines, and some smaller planes don't have them.
It's also true with road vehicles too. When I was learning to drive I was told to slow down on the brakes, not the gears, as it's cheaper and easier to replace brake pads than clutches. Even more true on Diesels as they don't actually have engine braking (unless specifically modified for engine braking). Engine brakes on diesels have the problem of being noisy (saw a coach today that must have had engine braking from the amount of noise it was making when slowing down).

Err that is not correct, big use is made of engine braking on diesel powered trucks, using exhaust brakes. a Diesel engine is a very high compression engine and as such is very good at 'engine braking', i've worked with and driven diesel driven trucks, mobile cranes, cars for over 25yrs. if you do an HGV(LGV) test you'll be taught the importance of engine braking and using the gears to slow you down, to save your brakes, brakes get very hot during long descents and as such the braking retardation reduces the hotter they get, hence why you use the gears and the high compression of the engine to help keep your speed under control ;o)

On aircraft all airliners are fitted with reverse thrust, these days with high fuel prices it is used less than before, but it is used on almost ALL landings with exception to the early birds at LHR.
On the A380 reverse thrust was only fitted to the inboards because of the risk of ingestation of all sorts of debris near the edges of some runways and also it simply wasn't required as the thrust from just 2 of the large turbofan engines was more than enough to slow down the big bus, it was also always intended to have them fitted.
As for wear and tear the amount of time reverse is in use is nothting for a modern turbofan engine, as an aside it is the thrust from the Fan that provides the 'reverse' thust on a modern engine not the hot jet flux this continues to provide 'forward' thrust even with revers engaged ;o).
Modern turbofan engines provide nearly 85-90% of their thrust form the 'cold' Fan and 10-15% from the 'hot' jet flux ;o)
 

TDK

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That seems the obvious reason now you've mentioned it. When did you drive 175s?

About 2 and a half years ago for ATW, nice to drive and quite responsive in comparison to 158's with a good all round braking system.
 
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The thing is brake pads are pretty cheap, and are fairly quick and easy to replace. Fuel these days is getting more and more expensive. I presume the fuel use comes from having to rev the engines up to operate the cooling fans. The airlines have the same issue, using reverse thrust on landing increases brake life, but uses more fuel and increases engine wear, as well as being noisy. Rising fuel costs coupled with increasing noise restrictions mean that planes rarely use more than idle reverse when landing, other than in wet conditions, which has no effect on fuel use or engine life. It's only real effect is to direct some of the thrust from the idling engines forwards, slightly aiding stopping. The A380 was actually not intended to have thrust reversers, but for certification did have to have them fitted, but only on the inner engines, and some smaller planes don't have them.
It's also true with road vehicles too. When I was learning to drive I was told to slow down on the brakes, not the gears, as it's cheaper and easier to replace brake pads than clutches. Even more true on Diesels as they don't actually have engine braking (unless specifically modified for engine braking). Engine brakes on diesels have the problem of being noisy (saw a coach today that must have had engine braking from the amount of noise it was making when slowing down).

Pads that need changing once a fortnight instead of roughly 4 months doesn't come cheap. The pads are just shy of £200 each, 80 per 5 car unit.
 
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