Why have advance fares?

[cymro]

Someone probably has asked this before.
What benefit is there to rail companies to have cheaper advance fares?

I can understand why this should be the case with planes where everyone has to sit and there is a fixed amount of space, but why are trai9n tickets sold like this?

 

[gordonthemoron]

to fill up what would otherwise be empty seats

 

[Mojo]

Yield Management

 

[ashworth]

These are some of the journeys I have made in the last 6 months all using cheap AP tickets. All have been return journeys involving buying 2 singles.

Nottingham to London (about 6 times)
Nottingnam to Norwich
Nottingham to Liverpool
Nottingham to Brighton
Nottingham to Manchester
Nottingham to Blackpool
Newark to Edinburgh

I would not have made any of these journeys if I had to pay the full price and so otherwise empty seats have been filled.

I don't like travelling with AP tickets because of the tight restrictions but I do like the cheap price if you book about 10-12 weeks in advance.

 

[LondonLarry]

I would not have made any of these journeys if I had to pay the full price

I think that pretty much answers the OP!

 

[Zoe]

As stated in another thread I have nothing against Advance fares for people that want to use them. The issue is that in recent years there has been a shift towards these fares at the expense of affordable walk-on fares. Until the late 1990s/early 2000s Super Saver tickets were available on many routes and these were affordable and allowed the flexibility to travel on any off peak train other than Fridays or Summer Saturdays. Then one by one the TOCs abolished these and Savers became more restricted. Regulation was also changed from RPI minus 1 percent to RPI plus one percent and the TOCs continue to push up the cost of walk-on travel. It's all very well having these cheap advance fares but this shouldn't be done at the expense of affordable walk-on travel as all this policy does is encourage car travel for people that want flexibility or for any reason can't plan their journey in advance.

 

[Failed Unit]

As stated in another thread I have nothing against Advance fares for people that want to use them. The issue is that in recent years there has been a shift towards these fares at the expense of affordable walk-on fares. This policy encourages car travel for people that for any reason can't plan their journey in advance.

I always find it amusing when people state about the Virgin 20 minute London - Manchester frequency getting people out of their cars, when Virgin want everyone to buy AP to afford to use it so in reality you are down to one train per day they one you are booked on! People that can afford the saver may find it cheaper to drive anyway. I have been there myself many times, our company wants us to use Advance purchase tickets fair enough. The meeting finishes early and we are stuck in a station for ages watching trains go. Luckily they have relented we now only have to travel with an Advance to the meeting and can get a open single back. However with the price difference between the single and return on many routes we are back with the saver!

 

[Capybara]

Spot on, Zoe.

We don't have a rule about using advanced tickets where I work but it is 'encouraged' by people who really don't know how the system works. Only yesterday I ticked off (in the nicest possible way) a member of staff who has booked in advance for a meeting next Monday. For reasons that weren't apparent when we first organised the meeting we are wanting to start earlier but we are restricted in our scope for doing so because one person has booked a train ticket in advance. Tails, dogs and wagging come to mind.

 

[Failed Unit]

Spot on, Zoe.

We don't have a rule about using advanced tickets where I work but it is 'encouraged' by people who really don't know how the system works. Only yesterday I ticked off (in the nicest possible way) a member of staff who has booked in advance for a meeting next Monday. For reasons that weren't apparent when we first organised the meeting we are wanting to start earlier bt we are restricted in our scope for doing so because one person has booked a train ticket in advance. Tails, dogs and wagging come to mind.

We could start a whole thread on strange business policies.

A few where I work, we are not allowed to book a 1st class ticket even if it is cheaper than the standard AP or if you are travelling on Virgin so the combined cost of standard and buying a meal is cheaper more expensive than going first (where food is included in the ticket price - I refuse to say it is free!)

People often fall into the buy 2 advance tickets pay more than the saver! I have nearly done that myself now trainline booking engines show the singles on one page and you need to click to another to find the returns - don't use the trainline anymore but the one work uses for booking tickets is trainline powered so many people get hit by that.

The sleeper arguement. I booked a single berth the moaned, I said when you start forcing people to share a hotel room with a stranger I will do the same on the sleeper. They said it is too expensive, I pointed out it was cheaper than a hotel room when they let it go!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Advance tickets are good for operators as they generally get 100% of the money.

For example:

Manchester Stns - Leeds Anytime Day Single is £15.90, which will get split between TPE and Northern.

Manchester Stns - Leeds Advance Single Rte TPE Only is say £10, which will go entirely to TPE as the ticket is Rte TPE Only, so isn't valid on Northern so therefore they are not entitled to any of the money.

Or:

Manchester Stns - Edinburgh Anytime Day Single Rte Carlisle is £51.50, which will (at a guess) get split between TPE, Northern, Virgin, Scotrail.

Manchester Stns - Edinburgh Advance Single Rte TPE Only is say £20, which will go entirely to TPE.

In the latter case the £20 going entirely to TPE is greater than the portion they would get from the Anytime fare.


The same logic applies with all the Rte XC Only, Rte LM Only, Rte Virgin Trains only, tickets that are popping up in the form of more traditional Anytime and Day tickets.


They also allow me and my friends to make cheap train journeys. Yes I have PRIV, but it is often cheaper to book advance. For example I am having a long weekend in the Isle of Wight with some non-Railway staff friends in a months time. Got Keighley - Portsmouth for £40, Brockenhurst - London for £9, and London - Keighley for £13. That is all far far cheaper than doing it with 'normal' tickets!

 

[Geezertronic]

If I travel from Birmingham International to London Euston and return on Advance Purchase tickets, the cost (including a Zone 1/2 tube ticket) = £106.20 (usually 0741 down to Euston, 1823 return).

If I had to travel by car (sometimes I do if I need to take/collect items), I claim £63ish in mileage allowance (depends on where in London), £25 in parking and £8 in congestion charge (again depends on where in London) = £96

Journey time is generally quicker by train/tube but not cheaper

 

[dk1]

If I travel from Birmingham International to London Euston and return on Advance Purchase tickets, the cost (including a Zone 1/2 tube ticket) = £106.20 (usually 0741 down to Euston, 1823 return).

If I had to travel by car (sometimes I do if I need to take/collect items), I claim £63ish in mileage allowance (depends on where in London), £25 in parking and £8 in congestion charge (again depends on where in London) = £96

Journey time is generally quicker by train/tube but not cheaper

& a tenner more is a very small price to pay for the pleasure of not driving, being able to use the time constructivley & being able to enjoy a welcome beer on the way home

 

[Geezertronic]

& a tenner more is a very small price to pay for the pleasure of not driving, being able to use the time constructivley & being able to enjoy a welcome beer on the way home

And I do take the train frequently, 3 1/2 hours to Docklands by car vs 2 hours by train/tube doesn't compare

Bit of a bugger when I have to take/collect stuff but I've bene lucky so far this year.

 

[gordonthemoron]

There is/was one major snag with the tube. When I worked for BR IT in the 80's, it was common for IT staff to collect computer magnetic tapes for transport to Blandford House (Marylebone), Crewe & Nottingham IT centres. IT staff were not supposed to use the tube when transporting these tapes, they should use taxis and reclaim the fare.

However, some bright spark decided to save time/money and use a priv on the tube. Result, one wiped tape, or at least unreadable due to the third rail.

 

[moonrakerz]

our company wants us to use Advance purchase tickets fair enough. The meeting finishes early and we are stuck in a station for ages watching trains go.

I have found that if I have been in this situation it is well worth asking the guard on an earlier train if you can board that one instead of waiting for the "correct" one. More say "Yes" than "No".

 

[Failed Unit]

Manchester Stns - Edinburgh Anytime Day Single Rte Carlisle is £51.50, which will (at a guess) get split between TPE, Northern, Virgin, Scotrail.

Manchester Stns - Edinburgh Advance Single Rte TPE Only is say £20, which will go entirely to TPE.

I have seen this quoted on the Glasgow - London route as well. The East Coast operators is better to sell you AP for 100% revenue. You win as you are paying less than the saver, they win as they are no splitting with Virgin.

Look at the York - Edinburgh walk on fares. (1st Class)

£165 gets you anytime on East Coast
£189 gets you anytime on XC
£204 gets you a business package on East Coast
£225 gets you an anytime for any operator
£234 gets you the full monty business package.

Who in thier right mind would pay more than £165 for 1st class return between York and Edinburgh? I am sure east coast gets more money from this ticket then it does from the £225 ticket otherwise it wouldn't exist.

Standard class is even worse for the unsuspecting.
Super Off Peak return £76.50
Off Peak Return (which is in fact valid anytime) £78.50
XC anytime return £110
Any operator anytime return £141

Why anyone would buy the later 2 is beyond me, but people do as they don't expect an off-peak return to be valid at 6am. As ATOC says simple!

Again XC / East Coast would get more money from selling 2x AP's @ £30 each as they are not sharing the revenue. I am sure it is the same between York and London where east coast will have tickets priced to keep money away from GC.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Originally Posted by Failed Unit
our company wants us to use Advance purchase tickets fair enough. The meeting finishes early and we are stuck in a station for ages watching trains go.

Ofcourse, you could always spend the waiting time productively in a nearby pub. Perhaps the company would cough up for the drinks?

 

[Failed Unit]

Ofcourse, you could always spend the waiting time productively in a nearby pub. Perhaps the company would cough up for the drinks?

I like the stations where you can do both at once

 

[Barn]

There is/was one major snag with the tube. When I worked for BR IT in the 80's, it was common for IT staff to collect computer magnetic tapes for transport to Blandford House (Marylebone), Crewe & Nottingham IT centres. IT staff were not supposed to use the tube when transporting these tapes, they should use taxis and reclaim the fare.

However, some bright spark decided to save time/money and use a priv on the tube. Result, one wiped tape, or at least unreadable due to the third rail.

Highly unlikely.

 

[yorkie]

Why anyone would buy the later 2 is beyond me, but people do as they don't expect an off-peak return to be valid at 6am. As ATOC says simple!

They are really only for selling on board.