Spot-hire

[route:oxford]

There are regular threads on this site bemoaning the lack of spare units to run services...

If a "newco" RoSCo were to start up with the aim of supplying new-build spot-hire vehicles, what would be the best option for...


Electric unit intended for semi-fast services up to 100 miles
or
Diesel unit intended for semi-fast services up to 100 miles.
or
"Inter-city" unit for 125mph services.

or a mix of the 3.


Say have £112M to spend on the fleet (based on idle thinking following the recent Euromillions jackpot).

 

[WatcherZero]

Mix of first two I would say, leave the intercity units for the government to (eventually) sort out and buy what you think people need now, though saying that probably a greater need of diesel units than electric as a lot of electric stock bought over last couple of years (nearly 600 including some turbostars I believe). But the electric units probably have more long term profitability in the 20-30 year timescale.

Perhaps buy a new generation of semi-comfortable 'pacer analogys' with a 20 year return and a fleet of quality EMU with a 30 year return?

 

[MCR247]

For a suburban/regionalEMU:
350/450
185 or adapted version with quieter engines

For more express services, but not intercity
444 type 350/450
DMU type 444 with engines quieter than 185s

InterCity:
Taurus/Traxx loco with coaches and DVT for longer distances OR ICE 3 (ie KGX-EDB)
ICE 3 (for KGX-LIN)
222

 

[route:oxford]

Should have added that I would go for...

Six 6-car "Voyager" type tilting units incorporating a pantagraph coach for electric power under the wires. (estimate £45M)

Ten 5-car "turbostar" 100mph units with end doors and gangways based on the current 172. (estimate £50M)

Hopefully someone would want to hire them...

 

[tbtc]

Perhaps buy a new generation of semi-comfortable 'pacer analogys' with a 20 year return and a fleet of quality EMU with a 30 year return?

That really needs building. Most of the "plans" seem to involve getting new Inter City units which mean HSTs move to Voyager routes which mean Voyagers/ Meridians move to 170/185 routes which mean 170/185s move to 158 routes which means 158s (and other Sprinters) replace Pacers

However, many Pacer routes need Pacer type trains to run them - a 158 would be no use. Since we know that not everything will be electrified, there really ought to be a market for a simple Pacer replacement (maybe no toilets, fairly lo-tech) which would still be needed in twenty years time.

Maybe the 172 is the answer, I don't know

 

[Drsatan]

Maybe the 172 is the answer, I don't know

The answer could be this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Talent as a Pacer replacement

It's a low floor DMU (so no problems getting bikes and pushchairs on and off, although that depends on platform height) with retention toilets and a spacious interior. However, I suspect the ROSCOs would be a bit reluctant to accept articulated coaches.

It would only be viable if the design was scaled down to fit the UK loading gauge.

 

[WatcherZero]

Personally what I think would happen if it wasnt so urgent (i.e. had another 5 years to spare) would be the, mythological Tram-trains coming in mainly as a lightweight high capacity and cheap pacer replacement with the option of city running but not being used for that from the start so that lines could be built to accomadate them at leisure.

In the real world however where we need a soloution now, what Northern needs is a fleet of 4 car turbostars which could be built by say 2013-2014 if Derby production was expanded. Is there any scope for building some centre carriages for the 158/159's they obviously still make the parts, so a new shell with off the shelf parts?

 

[jopsuk]

The answer could be this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Talent as a Pacer replacement

It's a low floor DMU (so no problems getting bikes and pushchairs on and off, although that depends on platform height) with retention toilets and a spacious interior. However, I suspect the ROSCOs would be a bit reluctant to accept articulated coaches.

It would only be viable if the design was scaled down to fit the UK loading gauge.

What about a narrow-body version of the French X73500? Mindyou, the Coradia family doesn't have a great record in this country (175/180/334/458/460). Does come in longer versions too.

 

[Drsatan]

Is there any scope for building some centre carriages for the 158/159's they obviously still make the parts, so a new shell with off the shelf parts?

No, the tooling for the 158/159 production line (remember, the 159s began life as surplus 158s that were modified at Rosyth dockyard for Waterloo-Salisbury-Exeter services) has almost certainly been sold off, so restarting the production line for only a few centre cars would be cost prohibitive. Not to mention the 158/159 design's been superseded by the Turbostar.

It would be a far better alternative to order more Turbostars or some other type of replacement DMU (or even, perish the thought, electrify some diesel-operated lines currently not proposed for electrification such as the MML or the Trans-Pennine lines) and then use the displaced 158s to run longer trains, or replace older types such as the 142s.

 

[WatcherZero]

I was joking with the centre car (though incidentally why have so many been descoped from 3 to 2 cars?)

 

[Kneedown]

The simple fact is that in 12 years time the 158's, and also 150/5/3/6's will be 30+ years old and life expired. The time to start planning for replacement is now. If the GWML and MML were to be electrified then they would really be the last of the big electrification projects as further electrification would be just infill or extension.
We don't really want to build hundreds more claggy diesel units so someone, somewhere, has got to bite the bullet and get the wires up on those two main lines, then plan where to strategically infill to gradually supercede DMU's with EMU's.
As an example of how it could work in my local area, and using the latest East Mids RUS published in another thread, if the MML were to be wired, and also the recommended Newark Northgate to Lincoln stretch, then it would be a simple matter to wire up Nott's to Newark, and also Ambergate to Matlock. That would enable the Nott's - Matlock and Lincoln - Leicester services to switch to EMU's. Once thats done you wire up Derby - B'ham if it's not already been done, and go from North Staff's jct to Stoke. Thats the Notts - Crewe's sorted, and so on.
The same principle would work elsewhere in the country but the key is that the main lines have to be done.
The clock is ticking but i can't see anything being done. I've a nasty feeling that in 2022 we'll have a nasty shock coming to us when Sprinters are failing left, right and centre and no one has made provision for a timely and more efficient replacement.

 

[tbtc]

The electrification argument is a nice one, and it'd be good if we could keep a rolling electrification up, going round the country.

However, there will always be routes too infrequent to justify electrification (which aren't used as diversions or have any other strategic reason to wire them up) - we can't use 158s on these lines, we still need a new class of "basic" DMU

 

[DjU]

I was joking with the centre car (though incidentally why have so many been descoped from 3 to 2 cars?)

They haven't. Only 17 x 158s where ever built with a middle car (plus the 22 original 159s).

Those centre cars have moved around a bit too an not all of them reside in the unit the started in. Of the 17 - 8 are in SWTs 159/1 - 8 are at Northen and 1 is at FGW

If anything more units have been reformed to 3 cars from 2 cars with FGWs hybrids making 10 x 3car units out of 15 two cars

 

[ChrisCooper]

One thing that people often don't take into account is that coutries that have large amounts of electrification typically use less than 25k for many routes, especially off the mainlines. Lower voltages give less problems with clearances under bridges and in tunnels. With modern electronics, dual voltage units shouldn't be too hard, afterall most EMUs since the 90s have had 25kV and 750v capability, so 1500v or 3000v, or even 6.25kV can't be that difficult. Oviously the desision to go for 25kV or lower would depend on factors such as traffic, speeds, gradients (all determining the power requirements and the number of substations) vs. alterations to structures needed. A blinkered view that 25kV is the only option is not the best way forward. I do wonder if lower voltage was actually considered for Crossrail, as 25kV seems a little pointless. Paris' RER afterall uses 1500v DC in the tunnels, and many other comparative systems use low voltages, including third rail. Internationally, 25kV is the standard for mainlines (although many mainlines are electrified with lower voltages) but far from standard for branches. Remember too that whilst the UK is "only" about 1/3 electrified, the likes of France and Germany are only about 1/2 electrified (and a lot of that is at less than 25kV).

 

[WatcherZero]

Well some Merseyrail expansion will be third rail and I dont know the South east, but if there was anything there unelectrified im sure they would use it too. What will probably happen is PTE's/ITA's will build or continue to expand their Tram networks gradually electrifying local commuter routes and a limited number of bi-mode trains could be sourced to operate on those lines as well.

 

[Kneedown]

The electrification argument is a nice one, and it'd be good if we could keep a rolling electrification up, going round the country.

However, there will always be routes too infrequent to justify electrification (which aren't used as diversions or have any other strategic reason to wire them up) - we can't use 158s on these lines, we still need a new class of "basic" DMU

There's no reason why 158's can't be used on infrequently served lines, they work Nott's - Skeggy's everyday!
My point was however, what we are going to do in 12 years time when 158's and other Sprinters will be life expired. I agree that some routes are so infrequent that it would not be viable to electrify at this time. This is where cascaded later generation DMU's come in, 170's, 185's, 172's for example.

 

[Wyvern]

Wasn't spot hire what FM Rail set out to do?

 

[DjU]

There's no reason why 158's can't be used on infrequently served lines, they work Nott's - Skeggy's everyday!
My point was however, what we are going to do in 12 years time when 158's and other Sprinters will be life expired. I agree that some routes are so infrequent that it would not be viable to electrify at this time. This is where cascaded later generation DMU's come in, 170's, 185's, 172's for example.

I think you've missed the point. There currently are some lines that Sprinters and Pacers currently run where these are quite appropriate to do so. (There are of course many where they aren't )

Many of of the newer units you specify are FAR to over-specced to run these such services, you will get to a stage where the cost start massively outweigh the benefit.

There will eventually need to be a new class of smaller lighter DMU for those smaller rural lines

 

[Kneedown]

Many of of the newer units you specify are FAR to over-specced to run these such services, you will get to a stage where the cost start massively outweigh the benefit.

There will eventually need to be a new class of smaller lighter DMU for those smaller rural lines

Why are the units i've previously mentioned "overspecced"? Ok, most have a top speed of 100mph, but when Central ran 170's they regularly deputised for 153's with no problems and no additional running costs. 172's are merely updated 170's. As regards 185's, ok, they've got a Voyager engine and good acceleration, but still a DMU that would be useful on non-electrified lines if the TP routes get wired.
It'd be far more expensive to design and build a whole new DMU class when there would already be suitable candiates stored. If you think a 185 would be overkill for a line such as Skeggy, then derate the engines a bit. That'd save even more money!

 

[MCR247]

I think you've missed the point. There currently are some lines that Sprinters and Pacers currently run where these are quite appropriate to do so. (There are of course many where they aren't )

Many of of the newer units you specify are FAR to over-specced to run these such services, you will get to a stage where the cost start massively outweigh the benefit.

There will eventually need to be a new class of smaller lighter DMU for those smaller rural lines

I disagree. 150s were at the time 'really new and express' and would have been overspecced then for the St Ives bay line. So by the time your thinking 170s are too over-specced, they will be looking to cascade them onto less used routes before getting rid!

 

[Failed Unit]

I disagree. 150s were at the time 'really new and express' and would have been overspecced then for the St Ives bay line. So by the time your thinking 170s are too over-specced, they will be looking to cascade them onto less used routes before getting rid!

I remember those days, the 150/1 on Ipswich - Leeds services (via Nottingham). Birmingham - Lincoln via Derby. The 150/2's doing branch lines such as Hull / Scarborough - Manchester!

The 170's do routes such as Edinburgh - Bathgate - hardly express but a good use for the unit. Better than the 158 in terms of train layout.

The 170's do less damage to the track then the pacers. I can't see why any route can't be operated by 170's that is currently ran by pacers / 153's. In some cases the extra seats would be welcome! The 170 maybe is used on express services but it is a local DMU seating config.

 

[tbtc]

Nottingham - Skeg would be fine with a 170 because there are long stretches without stopping and passengers may be on the service for well over an hour. However, routes like many of the Cardiff "Valley" lines, Manchester - Marple, or Pontefract - Wakefield are suited to Pacers or something similar - lots of stops, predominantly short journey times etc.

I know I'll be in a minority here, but a lightweight "basic" two car unit will still be needed for lines like these, where the top speed etc isn't an issue.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah you probably only need a 75/90mph vehicle, though the acceleration is probably far more important than a 90 max speed.

 

[Failed Unit]

Nottingham - Skeg would be fine with a 170 because there are long stretches without stopping and passengers may be on the service for well over an hour. However, routes like many of the Cardiff "Valley" lines, Manchester - Marple, or Pontefract - Wakefield are suited to Pacers or something similar - lots of stops, predominantly short journey times etc.

I know I'll be in a minority here, but a lightweight "basic" two car unit will still be needed for lines like these, where the top speed etc isn't an issue.

I would be interested to know the differences in running costs & track access charges between a 170 and 142.

I know the pacer is cheaper to lease, but is it cheaper to run? (I have never seen figures, although Northern did once claim that the higher leasing cost of sprinters could of set the maintenance of the pacer, coupled with paying TOC-on-TOC compensation when the pacer fails which was a lot more often when they were thinking of getting the Chinese DMU's in)

As stated earlier, the pacer maybe is light weight but it is more damaging to the track due to the number of axles.

 

[Kneedown]

Nottingham - Skeg would be fine with a 170 because there are long stretches without stopping and passengers may be on the service for well over an hour. However, routes like many of the Cardiff "Valley" lines, Manchester - Marple, or Pontefract - Wakefield are suited to Pacers or something similar - lots of stops, predominantly short journey times etc.

I know I'll be in a minority here, but a lightweight "basic" two car unit will still be needed for lines like these, where the top speed etc isn't an issue.

The Cardiff Valley lines would be a good candidate for future electrification, and if the MML were to be wired then it would make sense to eventually wire between Sheffield and Manchester which would have to also be done via Marple for diversionary purposes. If you mean Rose Hill Marple then that could also be taken in as it's only a short spur off the main line.

 

[tbtc]

The Cardiff Valley lines would be a good candidate for future electrification, and if the MML were to be wired then it would make sense to eventually wire between Sheffield and Manchester which would have to also be done via Marple for diversionary purposes. If you mean Rose Hill Marple then that could also be taken in as it's only a short spur off the main line.

I'd like to believe you.

But even if these are all done, it'll be six years until the GWML is wired up, then presumably the MML will take until 2020 and later by the time they start filling in other routes like these, meaning we'll be at least ten years before these kind of routes are touched, probably a good bit later (as I'm looking at a "best case" scenario) - a new build 'basic' DMU could still run on the routes for its natural lifetime before the wires come (bear in mind the Pacers were never meant to last this long)

 

[Failed Unit]

I'd like to believe you.

But even if these are all done, it'll be six years until the GWML is wired up, then presumably the MML will take until 2020 and later by the time they start filling in other routes like these, meaning we'll be at least ten years before these kind of routes are touched, probably a good bit later (as I'm looking at a "best case" scenario) - a new build 'basic' DMU could still run on the routes for its natural lifetime before the wires come (bear in mind the Pacers were never meant to last this long)

That is why the GWML is a strange on for the wiring before MML.

I guess the pacers will all be retired from the West Country as a result of the cascades which shall see the 165's going to other routes. However with many of the Branches remaining DMU only there will still be a lot of DMU's running around unless they split Oxford - Hereford (although the IEP will cascade DMU's off this route). I know we haven't still got the detail about the Great Western but some of the Welsh spurs should be done at the same time, as well as Bristol - Taunton. (I haven't seen plans for this).

Once the plans are complete you will have the following routes with DMU's.

Cardiff - Portsmouth (no juice between Southampton and Bath)
Weymouth - Bristol (i can't see wiring this ever been justified)
Reading - Gatwick (big gap in the 3rd rail network)
Reading - Bassingstoke (Am I the only one who thinks that getting this added onto Cross Rail would be useful).

Saying that the MML wouldn't really release many DMU's as it would only cover the mainline.

If TPE North was done however when coupled with the already announced routes a lot of DMU's could be released.

I feel only the pacers and 153's need to go by 2020 and the other DMU's could be modified to carry on for another 10 years. The 150's are 10 years younger than the 317's and 455's and they are stil doing stirling service. I don't think the 153 could be modified to RVAR standards. The toilet and narrow door at the toilet end in my view would prevent this. The 150's could be re-engined and in the North West already have toilets that can be accessed by all.

 

[Kneedown]

I feel only the pacers and 153's need to go by 2020 and the other DMU's could be modified to carry on for another 10 years. The 150's are 10 years younger than the 317's and 455's and they are stil doing stirling service. I don't think the 153 could be modified to RVAR standards. The toilet and narrow door at the toilet end in my view would prevent this. The 150's could be re-engined and in the North West already have toilets that can be accessed by all.

Don't forget that the useful life of an electric unit is much longer than a diesel unit.

 

[tbtc]

Reading - Gatwick (big gap in the 3rd rail network)

Very big and unnecessary gap. That'd be a priority for me, as both ends of the route are third rail, so I can't see why the bit in the middle isn't (as its half hourly, its not a "quiet" line)

Reading - Bassingstoke (Am I the only one who thinks that getting this added onto Cross Rail would be useful)

Again, that looks a good move - guaranteed to save DMUs

One attraction of wiring the two lines you've mentioned is that it'd hopefully encourage services from Kent (via Redhill)/ Portsmouth/ Brighton to Reading, to cover links lost by Cross Country - could turn Reading into quite a hub with more services to the south coast

 

[route:oxford]

The 150's are 10 years younger than the 317's and 455's and they are stil doing stirling service.

Aren't they quite a rare sight in Stirling now?