(Not Quite) My idea - Sleeper pod trains !

[yorksrob]

I was wondering about the economy of sleeper trains recently and pondering our need for cost-effectiveness as travellers, versus our need for privacy.

On the one hand, you have the traditional sleeper compartment - or even couchette, where you could end up sharing a room with up to four strangers. On the other hand, you have the new Scottish sleeper trains with one person (or couple) per compartment, but which are unlikely to be available at Travelodge prices.

I got thinking about a programme I saw many years ago on one of those Japanese pod hotels, where you have a bed in one of several horizontal pods on top of eachother. Other than perhaps a table at the head and luggage storage, all facilities are communal.

Could this be adapted to the railway ?

In the space of a sleeper compartment, you could have four pods arranged two on two, with access (by ladder for the upper floor) from the coridor. Each pod would have a door to the corridor at the foot of the pod and a window at the head.

Could this concept enable a budget sleeper service with 21st century privacy ?

 

[Mag_seven]

I'm sure Caledonian Sleeper originally were going to introduce "Pods" as part of the new Mark 5 stock but ditched the idea?

 

[yorksrob]

I'm sure Caledonian Sleeper originally were going to introduce "Pods" as part of the new Mark 5 stock but ditched the idea?

Here's me thinking I was being original

I wonder why they ditched it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Here's me thinking I was being original

I wonder why they ditched it.

It was a safety issue relating to the pods being oriented like seats, and the risk of a broken neck if sleeping with the head towards the direction of travel in an accident, I believe. (With the Sleepers reversing during the journey, having rotatable pods and ensuring everyone was the right way round wouldn't work).

The Japanese "pod hotel" concept might worth if they were transverse. I think the easiest way to do that would be to have adjacent sleeper compartments with upper/lower bunk only.

 

[Journeyman]

Here's me thinking I was being original

I wonder why they ditched it.

It was impossible to come up with a design that would satisfy safety regulations in the event of a crash. A lot of effort went into trying to solve the problem, as it would have created a lot more capacity and provided a cheaper option. The inability to provide it caused major problems.

 

[yorksrob]

It was a safety issue relating to the pods being oriented like seats, and the risk of a broken neck if sleeping with the head towards the direction of travel in an accident, I believe. (With the Sleepers reversing during the journey, having rotatable pods and ensuring everyone was the right way round wouldn't work).

The Japanese "pod hotel" concept might worth if they were transverse. I think the easiest way to do that would be to have adjacent sleeper compartments with upper/lower bunk only.

It was impossible to come up with a design that would satisfy safety regulations in the event of a crash. A lot of effort went into trying to solve the problem, as it would have created a lot more capacity and provided a cheaper option. The inability to provide it caused major problems.

I was personally thinking about transverse pods, which, being in the same configuration of traditional berths, presumably wouldn't be much different to existing systems.

The disadvantage for the passenger being that the window wouldn't be to your side.

 

[6Gman]

Could this be adapted to the railway ?

In the space of a sleeper compartment, you could have four pods arranged two on two, with access (by ladder for the upper floor) from the coridor. Each pod would have a door to the corridor at the foot of the pod and a window at the head.

What size would these doors be? Wouldn't they be more like hatches?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Presuming that the pods aren’t tall enough to stand up in, do occupants have to change into or out of night attire somewhere else?

How does this set-up work in practice? Are there quite a lot of toilet/shower/changing rooms?

Or is it a ‘sleep in your sweaty clothes like a couchette’ thing?

 

[yorksrob]

Presuming that the pods aren’t tall enough to stand up in, do occupants have to change into or out of night attire somewhere else?

How does this set-up work in practice? Are there quite a lot of toilet/shower/changing rooms?

Or is it a ‘sleep in your sweaty clothes like a couchette’ thing?

I envisage it rather like being in a two man tent - one has to be fairly crouched whilst pulling on ones clothes. But there would be a shower/sink/toilet room at the end of the carriage.

Obviously for someone planning to change into a ball-gown or suit, it's not for them, but for jeans and t-shirt it will be fine.

 

[yorksrob]

What size would these doors be? Wouldn't they be more like hatches?

I envisage something a bit like window shutters.

 

[30907]

I envisage something a bit like window shutters.

Aren't the new Nightjet sleepers going to have something like this?
https://www.nightjet.com/ausstattung/nightjetzukunft.html
(Sorry, the videos don't seem to work - maybe there's a better link?)

 

[6Gman]

I envisage something a bit like window shutters.

Good luck getting that past the accessibility legislation rules!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good luck getting that past the DDA rules!

Provided you offered a wheelchair user an accessible cabin at the price of a pod, why?

 

[edwin_m]

Having people sleeping side-on to the direction of travel might solve the safety issue - if there was a sudden stop they would just roll sideways a short distance into a wall which could be suitably padded. However I don't think there's quite enough room to do this in either the UK or Continental loading gauge. The berths would have to be accessed from the end, and those at the upper level(s) would need steps or ladders. Making the berths long enough for someone to sleep in probably doesn't leave enough width for the ladders in the corridor and for someone to pass by them safely.

I suspect 2+2 reclining seats, as I believe CS are offering, would give a simlar density to the pods without this sort of problem, but obviously with no privacy. Personally I think I'd rather be in a saloon with other people than in something that might be more like a coffin!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having people sleeping side-on to the direction of travel might solve the safety issue - if there was a sudden stop they would just roll sideways a short distance into a wall which could be suitably padded.

I think that was the conclusion with CS - the only way the pods would work would be if they were mounted sideways, which would both make them awkward to access and make two of them take up more space than a twin Classic room.

 

[yorksrob]

Having people sleeping side-on to the direction of travel might solve the safety issue - if there was a sudden stop they would just roll sideways a short distance into a wall which could be suitably padded. However I don't think there's quite enough room to do this in either the UK or Continental loading gauge. The berths would have to be accessed from the end, and those at the upper level(s) would need steps or ladders. Making the berths long enough for someone to sleep in probably doesn't leave enough width for the ladders in the corridor and for someone to pass by them safely.

I suspect 2+2 reclining seats, as I believe CS are offering, would give a simlar density to the pods without this sort of problem, but obviously with no privacy. Personally I think I'd rather be in a saloon with other people than in something that might be more like a coffin!

That's an interesting observation regarding ladders etc. I would have a seperate section for disabled passengers to overcome corridor issues.

I think 'coffin like'is a bit harsh. I imagine most people would have room to sit upright with their legs outstretched. And there would, of course be a window at the end of the bed.

 

[Bald Rick]

This effectively sounds like double the capacity of the sleepers. If so, the average fare would have to be more than half the CS average fare to enable a subsidy reduction, otherwise there would be no point. This puts it in the £100+ range; which given the comfort level I think wouldn’t be worth the cash. My opinion of course.

 

[WideRanger]

I have slept in a lot of pod hotels. Yes, it does feel like a small space, and may not be great if you are very claustrophobic. But, they feel much more private than a couchette. You may be suprised that in Japan some pod hotels are not significantly cheaper than conventional (but small) hotel rooms. The reason being is that they are convenient, unfussy and normally surprisingly well appointed. In pod hotels, people normally change in the shower / bath room.

I'd definitely be up for it.

 

[jon0844]

Reclining seats are one thing, but I'd have considered diagonal seating with screens, storage areas, power and the like as available on long haul flights in business or first class. They could afford a reasonable level of privacy for those not wanting a cabin.

I'm sure the careful use of lighting and other materials could afford a decent ambience for sleeping (with passengers provided with eye patches and earplugs).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Reclining seats are one thing, but I'd have considered diagonal seating with screens, storage areas, power and the like as available on long haul flights in business or first class. They could afford a reasonable level of privacy for those not wanting a cabin.

I'm sure the careful use of lighting and other materials could afford a decent ambience for sleeping (with passengers provided with eye patches and earplugs).

Had the safety issue been resolvable, this would have appealed to me.

 

[jon0844]

Had the safety issue been resolvable, this would have appealed to me.

These would really only be like ordinary seats, just slightly angled to allow for privacy screens. Not the same as pods or anything like that.

 

[yorksrob]

This effectively sounds like double the capacity of the sleepers. If so, the average fare would have to be more than half the CS average fare to enable a subsidy reduction, otherwise there would be no point. This puts it in the £100+ range; which given the comfort level I think wouldn’t be worth the cash. My opinion of course.

Is that versus the new sleepers, which are (more or less) one compartment per person, or traditionsl sleepers where one was expected to share ?

I have slept in a lot of pod hotels. Yes, it does feel like a small space, and may not be great if you are very claustrophobic. But, they feel much more private than a couchette. You may be suprised that in Japan some pod hotels are not significantly cheaper than conventional (but small) hotel rooms. The reason being is that they are convenient, unfussy and normally surprisingly well appointed. In pod hotels, people normally change in the shower / bath room.

I'd definitely be up for it.

That's interesting information.

I remember seeing them on telly decades ago and wondered why they never took off here. However, if they weren't much cheaper than a hotel room, that might act as a barrier.

 

[yorksrob]

That's an interesting observation regarding ladders etc. I would have a seperate section for disabled passengers to overcome corridor issues.

I think 'coffin like'is a bit harsh. I imagine most people would have room to sit upright with their legs outstretched. And there would, of course be a window at the end of the bed.

Could the pods be arranged slightly diagonally, to give more length I wonder ?

 

[Bald Rick]

To be honest capacity is pretty similar with new versus old; the difference being the accessible coach and the ensuites. The only difference is that sharing with strangers is now not permitted, but that doesn’t affect capacity, just utilisation. And as you are laying by the room now, it doesn’t overly affect income.

 

[yorksrob]

To be honest capacity is pretty similar with new versus old; the difference being the accessible coach and the ensuites. The only difference is that sharing with strangers is now not permitted, but that doesn’t affect capacity, just utilisation. And as you are laying by the room now, it doesn’t overly affect income.

I envisage that you would get around four pods in the space of a compartment, and these wouldn't be en suite (obviously) so maybe half the price of a traditional berth ?

 

[Bald Rick]

I envisage that you would get around four pods in the space of a compartment, and these wouldn't be en suite (obviously) so maybe half the price of a traditional berth ?

Yep that’s what I said upthread. So around £100 one way.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Reclining seats are one thing, but I'd have considered diagonal seating with screens, storage areas, power and the like as available on long haul flights in business or first class. They could afford a reasonable level of privacy for those not wanting a cabin.

I'm sure the careful use of lighting and other materials could afford a decent ambience for sleeping (with passengers provided with eye patches and earplugs).

I think this may be worth considering - thinking of how business class seats fit into the thin tube, the additional space onboard a train offers a lot more room for creativity.

 

[GrimShady]

It was a safety issue relating to the pods being oriented like seats, and the risk of a broken neck if sleeping with the head towards the direction of travel in an accident, I believe. (With the Sleepers reversing during the journey, having rotatable pods and ensuring everyone was the right way round wouldn't work).

The Japanese "pod hotel" concept might worth if they were transverse. I think the easiest way to do that would be to have adjacent sleeper compartments with upper/lower bunk only.

Was this an imaginary/perceived risk or did they actually do any simulations/crash test dummies?

 

[Indigo Soup]

These would really only be like ordinary seats, just slightly angled to allow for privacy screens. Not the same as pods or anything like that.

That's more or less what Serco were proposing for the Caledonian Sleeper - except not angled. To all intents and purposes, their 'pods' were just seats that reclined to a flat bed. Not really what most people would call a 'pod'.

I think this may be worth considering - thinking of how business class seats fit into the thin tube, the additional space onboard a train offers a lot more room for creativity.

Which thin tube? The only long-haul airliner I can think of that had as little space as a train is Concorde. Nobody would ever try putting business class seating of that kind on a 2+2 seated short-haul airliner.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's more or less what Serco were proposing for the Caledonian Sleeper - except not angled. To all intents and purposes, their 'pods' were just seats that reclined to a flat bed. Not really what most people would call a 'pod'.

They were in essence business class seats, of a type similar to the earlier types of lie-flat business class seats rather than the newer ones which are a bit fancier. The photos showed exactly the same ones as on the Northlink ferries.

https://www.northlinkferries.co.uk/...Link-Ferries-ships-to-Shetland-and-Orkney.jpg
Sleeping pods on Northlink

Interestingly those pods pictured don't appear to fully recline, unless I'm being thick.