How should service provision at Dore & Hope Valley stations be improved?

[Bletchleyite]

Surprised by the Manchester loadings. If demand is that high, I'd suggest maybe all the expresses need to stop.

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/liverpool-norwich-service-to-be-split-at-nottingham.180946/

 

[Killingworth]

Surprised by the Manchester loadings. If demand is that high, I'd suggest maybe all the expresses need to stop.

When the second track is restored through the station that may be possible for one of the supposedly fast services every hour. Other critical issues are also traffic across Dore Station, Dore South and Dore West junctions. Nothing is simple with railways!

Local priority is more stops to and from Sheffield, unlikely before 2022 on Northern's stopping service. A few more fast stops could come before that. Watch that space.

 

[Amstel]

Surprised by the Manchester loadings. If demand is that high, I'd suggest maybe all the expresses need to stop.

At the Transport for the North Rail Committee meeting last October they were asked to consider looking into diverting the Hope Valley stopping service to run via Hazel Grove (and run the current stopping service from Manchester via New Mills only as far as Chinley).

 

[Bletchleyite]

At the Transport for the North Rail Committee meeting last October they were asked to consider looking into diverting the Hope Valley stopping service to run via Hazel Grove (and run the current stopping service from Manchester via New Mills only as far as Chinley).

What is the benefit of that - faster?

 

[yorkie]

Surprised by the Manchester loadings. If demand is that high, I'd suggest maybe all the expresses need to stop.

It would probably be wise for a second platform to be restored first.

What is the benefit of that - faster?

It would provide good connections at Stockport, cutting journey times to stations towards London, Birmingham etc.

It is currently difficult to do journeys such as Stockport to Hope Valley stations, and passengers travelling from the Buxton line to the Hope Valley Line have to either go all the way into Manchester or walk across New Mills.

Also the trains can be already full by around New Mills, so it would make sense to get the local Manchester area passengers onto a different train.

 

[Killingworth]

At the Transport for the North Rail Committee meeting last October they were asked to consider looking into diverting the Hope Valley stopping service to run via Hazel Grove (and run the current stopping service from Manchester via New Mills only as far as Chinley).

That is not clearly explained but would greatly please Chinley users commuting to Stockport. However it would add to congestion through Stockport and potentially delay the current fast services of TPE and East Midlands especially, but not only, by putting pressure on the single track Hazel Grove chord.

It would also upset Peak District walkers from Marple and other stations on the current route.

If there is capacity I would not be surprised if consideration were given to the extra hourly train going something like semi-fast Piccadilly, Stockport, Chinley, Hope, Dore, Sheffield. But that's my logic, not that of DfT, TfN or anyone else.

 

[VT 390]

That is not clearly explained but would greatly please Chinley users commuting to Stockport. However it would add to congestion through Stockport and potentially delay the current fast services of TPE and East Midlands especially, but not only, by putting pressure on the single track Hazel Grove chord.

It would also upset Peak District walkers from Marple and other stations on the current route.

If there is capacity I would not be surprised if consideration were given to the extra hourly train going something like semi-fast Piccadilly, Stockport, Chinley, Hope, Dore, Sheffield. But that's my logic, not that of DfT, TfN or anyone else.

If they can time the service which will run from Manchester to Chinley (via Marple) so that it connects well with the stopping Hope valley service then I would not have thought this would be a problem.

 

[Dr Hoo]

If they can time the service which will run from Manchester to Chinley (via Marple) so that it connects well with the stopping Hope valley service then I would not have thought this would be a problem.

One problem is that Chinley these days hardly has either the passenger facilities or track layout for regular interchange, layovers, interchange with parking/buses or anything else.

 

[VT 390]

One problem is that Chinley these days hardly has either the passenger facilities or track layout for regular interchange, layovers, interchange with parking/buses or anything else.

Looking quickly at a map there seams to be space to install a turn back siding to the east of Chinley station (between the two main lines) at least long enough for the DMU's which would operate this service and this would solve the layover time issues as it could arrive just before the stopping service and then go in to this siding to let it pass with the opposite happening in the other direction.
You would not need much for interchange facilities if the waiting time is kept to a minimum, just some covered seating and departure boards.
Though I agree that buses and parking could be a issue there but how many people would use these facilities?

 

[Killingworth]

Looking quickly at a map there seams to be space to install a turn back siding to the east of Chinley station (between the two main lines) at least long enough for the DMU's which would operate this service and this would solve the layover time issues as it could arrive just before the stopping service and then go in to this siding to let it pass with the opposite happening in the other direction.
You would not need much for interchange facilities if the waiting time is kept to a minimum, just some covered seating and departure boards.
Though I agree that buses and parking could be a issue there but how many people would use these facilities?

The original Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme called for a loop at Chinley on railway land to allow a 4th fast hourly service. My understanding is that one of the reasons for cutting that was capacity into Piccadilly, as well as cost. There is no shortage of trackbed space for an extra siding, or loop.

Chinley users are currently pressing for step free access. There is quite a large shelter on the existing central platform. It's just had a door repaired and a window has been broken already.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

The original Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme called for a loop at Chinley on railway land to allow a 4th fast hourly service. My understanding is that one of the reasons for cutting that was capacity into Piccadilly, as well as cost. There is no shortage of trackbed space for an extra siding, or loop.

Chinley design had an east-end centre turnback siding and a third (through) line added, but as you say the additional turnback couldn't have got beyond Edgeley or Ardwick. One day ...

Actually, the station needs demolishing and starting again, but that's a different scheme altogether.

 

[edwin_m]

By reinstating one track on the former four-track section and building a third platform at Chinley, the New Mills terminators could be extended there without needing extra capacity into Manchester or on the Hope Valley itself. However I'm not sure it would justify the cost just to improve the service at Chinley.

 

[Killingworth]

By reinstating one track on the former four-track section and building a third platform at Chinley, the New Mills terminators could be extended there without needing extra capacity into Manchester or on the Hope Valley itself. However I'm not sure it would justify the cost just to improve the service at Chinley.

And Chinley users want more trains via Stockport.

 

[Killingworth]

How should service provision at Dore & Hope Valley stations be improved?

Firstly, and relatively simply, by utilising more rolling stock on the existing trains at busy times. But that needs longer platforms to take them, particularly at Sheffield where 2C can't take more than a single unit. Grindleford, Hathersage and Hope are all supposed to being lengthened by November so all can take 4 car trains if they can fit into Sheffield. Adding more trains will add to congestion unless there's more track to run on and signalling to switch between them.

When TPE can muster 6 carriage trains a lot will change. If the Liverpool - Nottingham can be boosted to 6 carriages that will help too. At present we're seeing price wars which don't seem to understand the realities of the line. At many times the 3 operators seem unaware of the congestion they're creating, and income they may be losing by their pricing. I repeat from a contribution on another thread.

There can be big savings playing TPE, East Midlands and Northern against one another. It can cost more than twice the price on TPE or East Midlands to some on Northern. But not every day at all times. Saturdays can be the opposite of a weekday.

As an example, an advance fare from Sheffield to Piccadilly next Saturday morning could cost as little as £5.20 on Northern or as much as £21.60 by TPE, for trains departing only 3 minutes apart. OK, the Northern train may take 26 minutes longer, but which would you choose?

9.11 TPE £8.20 51 minutes

9.14 Northern £5.20 79 minutes

9.40 East Midlands £11.40 57 minutes

10.11 TPE £9.20 51 minutes

10.14 Northern £5.50 79 minutes

10.40 East Midlands £13.40 57 minutes

11.11 TPE £16.50 51 minutes

11.14 Northern £5.20 77 minutes

11.41 East Midlands £13.40 56 minutes

12.11 TPE £21.60 51 minutes

12.14 Northern £5.20 77 minutes

It's all about capacity. Badly managed at present. No spare coaches? By coincidence I'd heard about this very issue and checked what happens this morning.

The Northern Class 150 at 9.14 left with many standees and at least 4 bikes, two of which had massive pannier bags, those two alone taking the space of 4 potential standees. Several users had very large bags clearly destined for Manchester Airport. Suffice to say that both the 9.14 and 10.14 were operated by Pacers until very recently causing passengers to be left on the platform at Sheffield. The 10.14 today was a 156 that was very well filled with standees down the full length of both carriages. At these comparative prices it's no surprise that TPE are losing passengers to Northern - but TPE services are rammed full as well! However, TPE are creaming off the fare income better.

 

[Killingworth]

Well, things haven't improved. We've slipped back to Pacers after sensible deployments of mostly 150 and 156 units.

TPE 6 coach trains are edging closer, but are few and far between and still mostly 3 car. East Midlands are usually 4 cars, but can be reduced to two. It's a lottery and with random cancelled and mega-late services (including EMT being diverted round the Dore curve to miss out Dore & Sheffield) knock on overcrowding can occur at any time on any train.

Today's Northern 10.49 Pacer from Piccadilly left 6 minutes late, crammed with Manchester folk heading for the hills and was 12 down at Edale where the load began to ease allowing a 13 minute late arrival into Sheffield for 12.17. A large crowd was waiting and the crew did well to change ends, get loaded and depart only 8 minutes late, standing room only. With another large crowd to embark at Dore & Totley the guard did a superb job encouraging passengers to move up the train both by announcing and then walking the length of the train to encourage every door to be used to the full, all with an effective good cheer that communicated to users. Her private views may not be as positive as the professional performance seen by travellers, but other guards might have left folks on the platform. She had no chance of selling tickets to those who had taken promise to pay tickets to reach Hope Valley stations. She only just managed to get back in herself.

Many users are now taking those tickets in the full knowledge that they'll be leaving at an ungated station without ever seeing the guard, so annual passenger statistics will show a much lower figure than they should. It seems there is no satisfactory way of protecting revene on many Northern trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem there is the simple one of "not enough rolling stock and too-short platforms". That's far easier to solve than the South East's constraints.

Despite Northern's somewhat erroneous order, the 2-car DMU needs to stop as a thing.

 

[Killingworth]

The problem there is the simple one of "not enough rolling stock and too-short platforms". That's far easier to solve than the South East's constraints.

Despite Northern's somewhat erroneous order, the 2-car DMU needs to stop as a thing.

Northern have many problems, not the least of them being they don't collect anything like enough of the revenue they should, certainly on this line and that feeds through to passenger number statistics.

It would seem very simple to reinstate the old disused parts of the platforms into service at Hope and Grindleford, and to build an extension at Hathersage, but it isn't happening. Recalling how quickly a new station was constructed at Workington after the floods a few years ago we're left wondering about procedures.

The dire punctuality performance on the Hope valley line is such that all the stations from Chinley to Dore appear in a table of the worst 50 in the country for time keeping. Dore is best - currently at 43rd worst!

 

[Chester1]

The problem there is the simple one of "not enough rolling stock and too-short platforms". That's far easier to solve than the South East's constraints.

Despite Northern's somewhat erroneous order, the 2-car DMU needs to stop as a thing.

DMU orders need to stop, full stop. Its like building new steam trains in the 1950s. Northern needs a temporary solution to boost the number of self powered units with doors at thirds. That could be 769s, battery 350s, either hydrogen conversion project or a mixture. In 5 years or so the long term options should be clearer, probably a mix of bi modes and battery EMU could be ordered.

Hope Valley stoppers will have a higher minimum capacity once the pacers go because sprinters are 50% longer. This situation would have been less severe with a 150 or 156 but the services should be rostered as double units. There isn't a fancy solution for the stopping service. I agree with other posters, Northern should not be selling end to end tickets on services that they know will be packed.

 

[Killingworth]

Ah ha, today Northern's random allocation included a 150/2. Comfortable for those joining the 9.14 from Sheffield, seen here at Dore & Totley.

Now if that unit had been on the Saturday services it wouldn't have allowed everyone a seat, but with a 153 tagged on at one end as well it probably would have.

 

[DanTrain]

On the other end of the spectrum I got off at Dore from the 21:03 TPE from Manchester on a Sunday recently and was the only one getting on or off. Makes me question the point of these late night calls on a Sunday, especially as I would have got the 20:03 had XC been able to run a proper train service!

Also, why does Dore have such a lop-sided service. At last count it had 27 services towards Sheffield per day but only 18 towards Manchester!?

 

[Killingworth]

On the other end of the spectrum I got off at Dore from the 21:03 TPE from Manchester on a Sunday recently and was the only one getting on or off. Makes me question the point of these late night calls on a Sunday, especially as I would have got the 20:03 had XC been able to run a proper train service!

Also, why does Dore have such a lop-sided service. At last count it had 27 services towards Sheffield per day but only 18 towards Manchester!?

Freight train conflicts.

Looks like it'll be getting slightly better from December though. TPE services are now up on RTT and there seems to be a new 5.15 stop from Dore to Manchester Airport, arriving there 6.25. Possibly not as daft as it may seem. About 35-40 catch the 6.15 most mornings and it could be convenient for those with early flights. There's one chap commutes most days to work groundside at the airport from Dore. I've seen pilots and cabin crew travelling from there too. Commuting patterns get longer the more travel options are offered.

That said it's ridiculous that Dore has 2 tph (3 for 2 hours) from Manchester in the evenings but only 1 tph from Sheffield - and a 155 minute gap in that!

 

[Chester1]

Ah ha, today Northern's random allocation included a 150/2. Comfortable for those joining the 9.14 from Sheffield, seen here at Dore & Totley.

Now if that unit had been on the Saturday services it wouldn't have allowed everyone a seat, but with a 153 tagged on at one end as well it probably would have.

View attachment 65784

Which means the capacity problem should be significantly better once the pacers go and 2 coach sprinters are the smallest units that Northern have.

 

[DanTrain]

Freight train conflicts.

Looks like it'll be getting slightly better from December though. TPE services are now up on RTT and there seems to be a new 5.15 stop from Dore to Manchester Airport, arriving there 6.25. Possibly not as daft as it may seem. About 35-40 catch the 6.15 most mornings and it could be convenient for those with early flights. There's one chap commutes most days to work groundside at the airport from Dore. I've seen pilots and cabin crew travelling from there too. Commuting patterns get longer the more travel options are offered.

That said it's ridiculous that Dore has 2 tph (3 for 2 hours) from Manchester in the evenings but only 1 tph from Sheffield - and a 155 minute gap in that!

Glad there’s signs of some improvement...definitely needed! That said the 155 minute gap once got me £50 in delay repay due to missing the connection so it’s not all bad

 

[Killingworth]

Surprised by the Manchester loadings. If demand is that high, I'd suggest maybe all the expresses need to stop.

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/liverpool-norwich-service-to-be-split-at-nottingham.180946/

This week users would certainly agree that more expresses need to stop - particularly the ones timetabled to do so, like yesterdays 7.14! Apparently 100 passengers can't be allowed to join or leave a train because the doors don't work properly. A return working today seems to show on RTT this evening as not stopping - both usually well filled 6 car trains. (At current growth rates 6 will soon be inadequate - roll on 185s on Liverpool - Nottingham.)

It's bad enough that the trains are rarely on time and often overcrowded or short formed, but sailing straight through without stopping, prior warning, explanation or apology is no way to get customer support. Fixing doors on relatively new trains can't be so difficult, surely.

 

[yorksrob]

Another route illustrating why Northern needs to retain all its 153's to increase capacity.