Potential nationalisation - What would happen to the liveries?

[Peter C]

Why is 'nationalisation' assumed to mean 'owned & controlled by one central government in Westminster' ?

Are the tram/metro systems in the UK not effectively nationalised?
Is TfL nationalised?
If the Scottish or Welsh govs took over their rail franchises at the end of the current ones, wouldn't that be nationalisation?
Merseyrail must be close to being nationalised, the infrastructure is NR & the new fleet is owned by Merseytravel.
West Midlands Railway brand is owned by TfWM.

The term "nationalisation" has been used for however many years* to describe a railway network which is owned and funded by the government. TfL gets some of it's money from government funding, but I'm not sure if this means it is nationalised.
If the Scottish or Welsh governments took over the rail franchises in their specific countries, then yes; the routes which are controlled by them would be nationalised.
Merseyrail is not nationalised as it is owned and run by Serco-Abellio. The infrastructure is owned by NR, yes, but so is 99% of the UK railway network. If that's your definition of close to nationalisation, the whole network is pretty much there.
West Midlands Railway is not a nationalised system as it is owned by private companies and is therefore privatised.
And as for "once central government in Westminster", as much as you may not like it, Her Majesty's Government is accountable to Parliament, and the Parliament just so happens to be in Westminster because it is in the centre of London and seen as London has been a major city since the year AD 47, it was considered a sensible decision to put it there.

-Peter

*Really, the railways were nationalised in 1948 and so this term has been kicking around for 71 years this year.

 

[Peter C]

Getting back on topic....anyone got any ideas as to how a modern InterCity or other BR livery would look?

I have a feeling that the liveries would potentially, to start off with, be the old liveries with new logos. I think that the "arrows of indecision" would have to be brought in. The road signs across the country all show the BR Double Arrows logo for a station. And the logo can be seen around loads of different places in stations.
However, a new BR livery would, looking at the way current liveries are going, be just white and black with no colour, enthusiasm, and yellow ends. I like the yellow ends. Trains look wrong without them.
I would love to see a Class 800 in the BR livery.

-Peter

 

[TRAX]

The term "nationalisation" has been used for however many years* to describe a railway network which is owned and funded by the government. TfL gets some of it's money from government funding, but I'm not sure if this means it is nationalised.

TfL is indeed a public body (depending on the Greater London Authority), but it is different from the main subject of this topic as it is not an operator, but a transport authority.

 

[Peter C]

TfL is indeed a public body (depending on the Greater London Authority), but it is different from the main subject of this topic as it is not an operator, but a transport authority.

OK. Thanks for clearing that one up.

-Peter

 

[Legolash2o]

I was too young to remember British Rail but from what I've heard, I don't see why anyone would want to nationalise it again. I wonder how different it would have been if it was properly funded.

What are the actual benefits of nationalising the franchises? The first one that comes to mind is not worrying about which train I can use my ticket with, if my planned train was cancelled.

 

[Peter C]

I was too young to remember British Rail but from what I've heard, I don't see why anyone would want to nationalise it again. I wonder how different it would have been if it was properly funded.

What are the actual benefits of nationalising the franchises? The first one that comes to mind is not worrying about which train I can use my ticket with, if my planned train was cancelled.

The thing about people who don't want nationalisation is that they all use the same arguments: they all say "people have rose-tinted memories of BR" and "BR was rubbish" and all of that.
If the network was nationalised, we wouldn't necessarily go back to to British Rail. In an ideal world, we would have a system where every route is run in the way the LNER is run now. Funded by the government and run for the sake of being a railway, not for the sake of making a profit.
At the moment, the whole railway system is run for the sake of making a profit. This means that the Train Operating Companies are less interested in whether their passengers have a good experience and they are more focused on whether there profits are in the green or not.
If we had a nationalised system, it would be far easier for people to get from A to B; at the moment, if I wanted to go from Paddington to Birmingham (a route which was easily done in BR days), I would have to go as far as Oxford on GWR and then change there for Birmingham on a Chiltern service. If we had a nationalised network, the new BR could potentially run services as they did in the old days (in terms of origins and destinations, not delays!).

-Peter

 

[MarlowDonkey]

f I wanted to go from Paddington to Birmingham (a route which was easily done in BR days), I would have to go as far as Oxford on GWR and then change there for Birmingham on a Chiltern service.

I think you would have to go to Reading and change to Cross Country. The Paddington to Manchester trains via Birmingham in the days of British Rail became Bournemouth to Manchester under if not before privatisation. I would expect Paddington to Reading is now just to busy to run Cross Country services along it. In the days when Virgin was the Cross Country operator they ran services to Brighton and Margate via Kensington Olympia which would have used the Great Western main line.

 

[Peter C]

I think you would have to go to Reading and change to Cross Country. The Paddington to Manchester trains via Birmingham in the days of British Rail became Bournemouth to Manchester under if not before privatisation. I would expect Paddington to Reading is now just to busy to run Cross Country services along it. In the days when Virgin was the Cross Country operator they ran services to Brighton and Margate via Kensington Olympia which would have used the Great Western main line.

I'm not prepared to spend however long on a Voyager and spend the CrossCountry fares! Also, Birmingham Moor Street is a far better (and Chiltern) station.

-Peter

 

[Captain Bigwig]

If we had a nationalised system, it would be far easier for people to get from A to B; at the moment, if I wanted to go from Paddington to Birmingham (a route which was easily done in BR days), I would have to go as far as Oxford on GWR and then change there for Birmingham on a Chiltern service. If we had a nationalised network, the new BR could potentially run services as they did in the old days (in terms of origins and destinations, not delays!).

If you insisted on doing this journey on a train out of Paddington you'd have to get to Banbury before switching to a Chiltern train (Chiltern doesn't run Oxford- Birmingham).

Really though you'd be far better off taking the underground to Marylebone or Euston to catch a train to Birmingham. The only reason Paddington - Birmingham trains don't run any more is because the trains on that route were diverted to Marylebone to make better use of the capacity available there.

 

[Peter C]

If you insisted on doing this journey on a train out of Paddington you'd have to get to Banbury before switching to a Chiltern train (Chiltern doesn't run Oxford- Birmingham).

Really though you'd be far better off taking the underground to Marylebone or Euston to catch a train to Birmingham. The only reason Paddington - Birmingham trains don't run any more is because the trains on that route were diverted to Marylebone to make better use of the capacity available there.

Oh OK. Sorry - forgot about Chiltern not running to Birmingham.

-Peter

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The only reason Paddington - Birmingham trains don't run any more is because the trains on that route were diverted to Marylebone to make better use of the capacity available there.

I think the history is slightly more complicated than that.

Back in the steam era, there was a Paddington to Birmingham and beyond service running via Greenford and High Wycombe. Once the electrification of the line to Euston was completed, this was diverted to run via Reading instead of High Wycombe. Marylebone didn't have services that went any further than Banbury. This was still the case in the 1980s. Later in the Network South East and privatisation eras, the via Reading service was transferred away from Paddington to run to Bournemouth and other south coast destinations, whilst Chiltern and its NSE predecessor extended their Banbury service to Birmingham.

 

[Captain Bigwig]

I think the history is slightly more complicated than that.

Back in the steam era, there was a Paddington to Birmingham and beyond service running via Greenford and High Wycombe. Once the electrification of the line to Euston was completed, this was diverted to run via Reading instead of High Wycombe. Marylebone didn't have services that went any further than Banbury. This was still the case in the 1980s. Later in the Network South East and privatisation eras, the via Reading service was transferred away from Paddington to run to Bournemouth and other south coast destinations, whilst Chiltern and its NSE predecessor extended their Banbury service to Birmingham.

Ah, thank you. I hadn't fully grasped the history of these services.

 

[fowler9]

I was too young to remember British Rail but from what I've heard, I don't see why anyone would want to nationalise it again. I wonder how different it would have been if it was properly funded.

What are the actual benefits of nationalising the franchises? The first one that comes to mind is not worrying about which train I can use my ticket with, if my planned train was cancelled.

Well you say you can't think why anyone would want to rationalise and then give an example of why you would.

 

[route:oxford]

I like the idea of the Scotrail livery but with the Union Flag on silver rather than saltire on Blue.

It would be amazing to have a uniform "British Rail" livery on every carriage and the Union Flag "flying" from Wick to Exeter.

But, isn't "British Rail" just a bit "Farage", shouldn't we be thinking a bit more European? A single nationalised rail service for Europe?

 

[fowler9]

I like the idea of the Scotrail livery but with the Union Flag on silver rather than saltire on Blue.

It would be amazing to have a uniform "British Rail" livery on every carriage and the Union Flag "flying" from Wick to Exeter.

But, isn't "British Rail" just a bit "Farage", shouldn't we be thinking a bit more European? A single nationalised rail service for Europe?

The livery sounds horrendous and also how would you have a single nationalised service for Europe?

 

[Doomotron]

This is something I came up with months ago. I tried to keep some of the sectors from old BR but modernise it a bit. There is some of the old sectors like NSE and new ones like Wales And West. There's also Railfreight Europe which would basically be BR's DB Schenker.

New British Rail sectors:
- Network SouthEast - NSE livery with curved ends and red doors - red seats with black and blue diagonal dashes and black cloth headrest with NSE logo (like original but rounded and only blue and red squares) - blue handrails - black carpet with small white lengthways stripes - light grey lino at vestibules with dark grey circles where the corridor is - name shown at left end of coaches in between red stripe and light blue top.
- InterCity - IC livery, black, white and a red stripe (or dark red on ICXC) with red (or dark red) doors - brick red (washed put red/pink) seats with white randomly placed dots and grey leather headrest with red or dark red IC logo - grey handrails - red or dark red carpet with small dark red lengthways stripes - blue lino at vestibules - name shown at left end of coaches in white at bottom - on locos, IC logo and name is in centre.
- Regional Railways - RR livery, black and white with blue stripe with curved ends and blue doors - grey seats with dark blue dashes and black leather headrest with blue RR logo (RR - in box, second R has inverted colours) - blue handrails - black carpet with white diagonal stripes - blue lino at vestibules - name shown at left end of coaches in white between the black and blue.
- ScotRail - SR Saltire.
- Network NorthWest - NNW livery, black, white and orange stripe with curved ends and orange doors - grey seats with orange squares and orange cloth headrest with orange NNW logo (NSE logo but with black and orange) - grey handrails - black carpet with small orange lengthways stripes - light grey lino at vestibules - name shown at left end of coaches in between orange stripe and black top.
- Wales and West - WW livery, dark green with thin lime green stripe and lime green doors - green seats with light and dark green dots and grey cloth headrest with WW logo (W//W) - green handrails - black carpet with small green lengthways stripes - grey lino at vestibules - name shown at left end of coaches in between green stripe and windows.

- Railfreight Distribution - RD livery: light grey bottom half with darker grey top half, blue roof (same as Class 92). Railfreight Distribution or Railfreight Europe logo and text shown at the bottom right of the train side. RD would operate intermodal freight services nationwide. Railfreight Europe would operate through the Channel Tunnel and into France.
- Mainline - Mainline livery: metallic blue with silver stripe half way up the body, with Mainline logo above it in the centre of the loco. Mainline would operate mixed freight services nationwide.
- Loadhaul - Loadhaul livery: black with orange blocks at the ends of locos. Large logo in the centre of the locos. Loadhaul would operate aggregate freight (and similar) services nationwide.
- Rail Express Systems - RES livery: dark red base with black ends. Large RES logo (grey 'Eagle' design) and black name text in centre. RES would operate mail and rail operations services.

 

[GrimShady]

ScotRail should dump their current livery. It's bland and totally boring. The new 7 cities livery is much better. I wonder how a 385 would look in BR ScotRail livery.

 

[xotGD]

I wonder how a 385 would look in BR ScotRail livery.

The phrase "Lipstick on a pig" comes to mind!

 

[njlawley]

This livery / branding thing is something I have privately thought about since the new-style GWR, TPE and Northern styles first appeared.

Given the idea behind these generic styles is that they don't have to change every time the franchise changes hands, I would have thought that the DfT would have been responsible for this and introduced a new style that would have created a more unified brand. For example, name plus the current double-arrow-in-a-circle logo (the new Northern design would be suited to this).

Personally, I would prefer a unified brand identity, even if the network is still privatised. Perhaps management contracts would be better suited for this arrangement. The network would then be split into three sub-brands:

• InterCity for the true IC routes (e.g. WCML, ECML, GWR Main Line, MML etc);
• a secondary brand akin to AlphaLine or Northern's Connect for the slower semi-fast inter-urban routes;
• then everything else, using something like Regional Railways, or a generic British Rail (or similar) branding - an alternative could be the "name plus logo" idea above.

Scotrail, TfW Rail, and possibly any PTE networks would keep their current identities, but I would rather see some of the TfW cross-border routes become part of the secondary brand. PTE networks could be dual branded, similar to the old grey GMPTE livery.

 

[Meerkat]

If you have a national brand then it will all get tainted by the worst performing service group.
It also has no local affinity- I think people like and respect having “their” trains, particularly for the large cities.
I just don’t see what gain there is by having a national brand.

 

[Peter Kelford]

We can look to Scotrail as an example. Its livery is a clean and modern take on key elements of its national identity. There is absolutely no mistaking the fact that trains in the Scotrail livery are decidedly 'Scottish', I7C apart. They also don't look like antiquities from the British Empire. Reds, whites and blues a bit like the Yorkshire Metro livery to some extent. Regional variations on certain rolling stock items could work. Nameplates and proper naming is a must, in my humble opinion.

 

[Peter C]

Nameplates and proper naming is a must, in my humble opinion.

Definitely. Engines have been being named for as long as the railways have been around and the fact that some TOCs such as FGW have their units stick-on names takes away from the naming. It makes it feel cheap and nasty.

-Peter

 

[Peter Kelford]

Definitely. Engines have been being named for as long as the railways have been around and the fact that some TOCs such as FGW have their units stick-on names takes away from the naming. It makes it feel cheap and nasty.

-Peter

The names you get these days tend to be a mouthful and are sponsored corporate events often, like Dartington International Summer School. Wouldn't just Dartington be a better name?

 

[Peter C]

The names you get these days tend to be a mouthful and are sponsored corporate events often, like Dartington International Summer School. Wouldn't just Dartington be a better name?

Definitely. We have some stupid names on engines and units. The Welsh ones are the worst. My ABC Rail Guide for 2018 says that 43140 was called:

Depo Diesel Glandwr 1963 Dathlu 50 Mlynedd 2013 Landore Diesel Depot 1963 Celebrating 50 Years 2013

And that's stupid. Have it in one language or another. Not both!

-Peter

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I like the idea of the Scotrail livery but with the Union Flag on silver rather than saltire on Blue.

It would be amazing to have a uniform "British Rail" livery on every carriage and the Union Flag "flying" from Wick to Exeter.

But, isn't "British Rail" just a bit "Farage", shouldn't we be thinking a bit more European? A single nationalised rail service for Europe?

Well BT, British Gas, British Petroleum were all Labour creations out of nationalisation? Funny how the old left is now looking more like the new right in some cases.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If you look at "nationalised" railways abroad, you find just as many kaleidoscopic livery schemes as here.
They are often in a very local style dictated by the local government region (who as least part-fund the services).
Even the inter-city sectors have multiple liveries (eg TGV, intercites, Ouigo and the rest.
Why do people think it would be any different here?
A new "BR" would have much less control over services because devolution continues to expand, and each administration wants to be different.
And who cares about liveries anyway.
It's how the operational and management structure works that matters, and how it is funded.
The funders will choose the paint scheme.
Currently all rolling stock is in private hands.

 

[PR1Berske]

I think threads like these thrive because it is easy to imagine what liveries could look like and how design would change under a new regime. There's interest in creativity.

It would not be as interesting to ask "What would a management structure look like under nationalisation?" or "How would you fund a railway pension scheme?".

So yes, operational structures and funding is important, but the finer details don't make compelling forum posts, by and large.

 

[6Gman]

I like the idea of the Scotrail livery but with the Union Flag on silver rather than saltire on Blue.

It would be amazing to have a uniform "British Rail" livery on every carriage and the Union Flag "flying" from Wick to Exeter.

But, isn't "British Rail" just a bit "Farage", shouldn't we be thinking a bit more European? A single nationalised rail service for Europe?

1. I fear you could have some graffiti-removal bills in parts of Scotland and Wales.
2. Why stop at Exeter?

 

[The Ham]

1. I fear you could have some graffiti-removal bills in parts of Scotland and Wales.
2. Why stop at Exeter?

In reply to point 2 there's a few possibilities

- the scone war breaks out in to full hostilities between Devon & Cornwall and it's no longer safe to run trains beyond Exeter
- Cornwall declares independence from England impacting the liveries of most services South of there
- any units which go to Plymouth get an unofficial repaint by the locals

Take your pick, but my money's on one of the first two as the last one doesn't sound likely!

 

[6Gman]

In reply to point 2 there's a few possibilities

- the scone war breaks out in to full hostilities between Devon & Cornwall and it's no longer safe to run trains beyond Exeter
- Cornwall declares independence from England impacting the liveries of most services South of there
- any units which go to Plymouth get an unofficial repaint by the locals

Take your pick, but my money's on one of the first two as the last one doesn't sound likely!

Very good.