Sheffield station - they're having a laugh!

[yorkie]

Someone at Sheffield station last night claimed that "they" (presumably ATOC) are considering bringing in a rule that if you combine tickets you have to physically get off the train and get back on.

I've heard reports (for example from Roland Perry) about EMT staff at Nottingham not liking split tickets before, accusing customers of attempting to "beat the system". Is it an EMT thing?

Has anyone else asked for split tickets at EMT managed stations? If so, what was your experience?

 

[John @ home]

Someone at Sheffield station last night claimed that "they" (presumably ATOC) are considering bringing in a rule that if you combine tickets you have to physically get off the train and get back on.

I am not surprised that ATOC are considering this, given the current financial performance of the train companies. But it is not difficult to predict the outcome of their considerations.

I don't know what one would call the sequence of events if one was required to step on to the platform at B and C in order to travel A - B - C - D at lowest cost, but it would certainly not be accurate to describe this as one journey. But the right to use a combination of tickets for one journey has existed since British Rail days.

National Conditions of Carriage
17. Combining two or more tickets
You may use two or more tickets to travel on one train journey provided that:-
(a) they cover the entire journey; and
(b) one of the following applies:
(i) they are both zonal tickets;
(ii) the train you are on calls at the station(s) where you change from one ticket to another; or
(iii)one of the tickets is a season ticket and one of them is not and any train operated by the same Train Company calls at the station(s) where you change from one ticket to another.
If you make a journey using two or more tickets when these conditions are not met you will be treated as having joined the train without a valid ticket for that part of the journey not covered by the tickets you hold and Condition 7 or 8 will apply to it as if it were a separate journey.
http://www.crowsnest.co.uk/north/br_ncc.htm

The wording has changed a little, but the right still exists in the current conditions.

National Rail Conditions of Carriage
19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.
You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).
If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply, either to the entire journey, or from the last station where the train stopped at which at least one of the tickets was valid.
For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:
(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days
and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and Britrail passes.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

If the train companies were to bring in a rule that if you combine tickets you have to physically get off the train and get back on then the right to use two or more tickets for one journey would no longer exist.

If this right were abolished, then ATOC would risk another investigation by the Office of Fair Trading into the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. The result of the 2005 OFT investigation is attached. It required ATOC to change 15 terms of the Conditions in order to improve passengers' rights or make them more explicit.

Another OFT investigation would be a big risk for the train companies. At present, only a minority of passengers combine tickets to get the lowest fare for their journey. If there were another OFT investigation, consumer bodies would press OFT to rule that a passenger buying a ticket must be told before purchase if a combination of tickets is available for their journey at a lower cost. This could be implemented by appropriate software. If that were to happen, only a very small minority of passengers would choose not to combine tickets to get the lowest fare for their journey. That would destroy the train companies' current business model, so it is a risk they won't take.

Therefore ATOC won't bring in a rule that if you combine tickets you have to physically get off the train and get back on.

 

[wintonian]

As you could in theory get of the train step onto the platform and then re-alight the same train causing problems if there is a que of pepole to get on and off a busy service, I suspect that any rule change would have passengers physically leaving the station and then re-entering in the same way as breaking a journey.

 

[Polarbear]

I would guess that this may be a bit of scaremongering by a TOC that thiks it's losing out with people on split tickets.

The obvious answer would be to make the fare structure more equtable so that people wouldn't have to split tickets to get better value. That's not going to happen any time soon though.

I can't see how the railway could actually enforce this in any case. Is a conductor/guard really going to make sure any passengers (oops - customers) are going to alight at their respective split point on a given journey? What if the ticket check is only done after the split point of the journey? How many different splitting opportunities are there across the country anyway - probably several thousand!:roll:

I could go on, but I think we all know this would be unworkable.

 

[Ferret]

I can't see how the railway could actually enforce this in any case. Is a conductor/guard really going to make sure any passengers (oops - customers) are going to alight at their respective split point on a given journey? What if the ticket check is only done after the split point of the journey? How many different splitting opportunities are there across the country anyway - probably several throusand!:roll:

I could go on, but I think we all know this would be unworkable.

You read my mind!!! Wasn't the condition quoted earlier in the thread brought in specifically to abloish the absurdity of split ticket pax needing to physically alight from the train? I can't imagine the railway companies actually doing this, but if they did, would they seriously expect TMs/RPIs to enforce this?! Oddly enough, I find my day occupied with more important things - like catching those that don't wish to pay *anything* for their travel

 

[Aictos]

So that being said, the cheapest way it seems from my station for a day out in London is to get a return to Crews Hill then get a Zones 1 to 6 travelcard.

Saying that though, I don't know how Oyster would apply as Crews Hill is the first place you can use it much like the Travelcard above so how could you tap in without getting off the train and then getting the next one as the machine is not on the platforms but rather by the entrance without fear of getting a PF?

Still, back to the OP I had brought a pair of split tickets last month to travel between Peterborough and Doncaster via Lincoln ie a Single Priv between Peterborough and Lincoln with another Single Priv between Lincoln and Doncaster and seeing as the train I was on which is a direct service between Peterborough and Doncaster which stopped at Lincoln I had no problems at all with the guards.

Indeed it was a pleasure to take my time and trundle up the joint line.

But I will say this, even though I don't work in revenue from talking to colleagues even I've picked up on how popular split tickets are now with the passengers.

 

[moonrakerz]

I've heard reports (for example from Roland Perry) about EMT staff at Nottingham not liking split tickets before, accusing customers of attempting to "beat the system". Is it an EMT thing?

Has anyone else asked for split tickets at EMT managed stations? If so, what was your experience?

They HAVE to sell you whatever tickets you ask for. If they don't like it - Tough !

 

[Mojo]

Saying that though, I don't know how Oyster would apply as Crews Hill is the first place you can use it much like the Travelcard above so how could you tap in without getting off the train and then getting the next one as the machine is not on the platforms but rather by the entrance without fear of getting a PF?

On National Rail & the Tube if you're using a Travelcard you don't need to touch in/out where there are no barriers, or where the barriers are open.

 

[dan_atki]

On National Rail & the Tube if you're using a Travelcard you don't need to touch in/out where there are no barriers, or where the barriers are open.

But that's the point, now Oyster PAYG is accepted on NR throughout the zones it is impossible to use it as a combination of tickets (from outside the zones) without getting off the train at the first zone 6 station and touching in.

As I've said elsewhere on this very subject, you really are no worse off* (and are actually better off) getting the paper travelcard when you start the journey. It costs the same as the Oyster cap and saves you getting on and off trains at obscure locations.

*Unless, of course, you don't intend the total cost of travel to reach the travelcard price - in which case it's probably worth getting a through paper ticket in the first place rather than splitting.

 

[Mojo]

But that's the point, now Oyster PAYG is accepted on NR throughout the zones it is impossible to use it as a combination of tickets (from outside the zones) without getting off the train at the first zone 6 station and touching in.

Indeed, it's a pain that if using Oyster PAYG you can leave the zones by combining (by getting an Oyster Extension Permit), but you can't enter them.

 

[dan_atki]

Indeed, it's a pain that if using Oyster PAYG you can leave the zones by combining (by getting an Oyster Extension Permit), but you can't enter them.

Oyster Extension Permits are not for leaving the zones. OEPs are used when someone has a travelcard on Oyster (say zones 1-4), but wishes to go beyond the zones held, paying with PAYG - e.g. to Surbiton, zone 6.

The idea is that the OEP will correctly deduct the correct PAYG fare then (in this case a Boundary 4 to zone 6 fare - I guess the same as a 4 to 6), rather than PAYG for the whole journey, or worse, the maximum fare penalty.

 

[mallard]

I've used split tickets on EMT before (including buying them) and it's never been an issue. One guard did advise me that the train must stop at the station, but I already knew that.

One thing I would advise though is to only show the current ticket to an inspector when asked, as I know some have had issues where an inspector has marked a ticket and a crew change has occurred before/at the split point and the second inspector sees the ticket already marked and assumes it was used.

On the subject though, I doubt that ATOC will get away with removing the right to split tickets, since it would interfere with people's ability to change their travel plans, especially for those on TOC-only and advance tickets where excess is not available.

 

[Helvellyn]

Someone at Sheffield station last night claimed that "they" (presumably ATOC) are considering bringing in a rule that if you combine tickets you have to physically get off the train and get back on.

Was this "someone" Tim Shoveller or Tom on the barrier gateline? :roll:

Indeed, it's a pain that if using Oyster PAYG you can leave the zones by combining (by getting an Oyster Extension Permit), but you can't enter them.

Oyster Extension Permits are not for leaving the zones. OEPs are used when someone has a travelcard on Oyster (say zones 1-4), but wishes to go beyond the zones held, paying with PAYG - e.g. to Surbiton, zone 6.

The idea is that the OEP will correctly deduct the correct PAYG fare then (in this case a Boundary 4 to zone 6 fare - I guess the same as a 4 to 6), rather than PAYG for the whole journey, or worse, the maximum fare penalty.

Indeed, the other purpose of the OEP is to show intent to pay for the journey beyond the Travelcard's validity on National Rail. I've had it described to me as an electronic permit to travel, but it has no cash value.

 

[yorkie]

The idea is that the OEP will correctly deduct the correct PAYG fare then (in this case a Boundary 4 to zone 6 fare - I guess the same as a 4 to 6), rather than PAYG for the whole journey, or worse, the maximum fare penalty.

The OEP does nothing at present.

In future, it will prevent you getting a PF - if the TOCs ever enforce it (which they won't because 3% of people are bothering!) - it doesn't do anything other than tell an RPI (If one turns up) that you intend to go somewhere outside the zones on your season ticket.

It's a ludicrous idea, and I welcome the day that the scheme is abandoned.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Was this "someone" Tim Shoveller or Tom on the barrier gateline? :roll:

Sheffield doesn't have a barrier gateline! It was someone at the ticket office. Does Tim Shoveller make daft claims? Got any examples?

 

[Lampshade]

How would they enforce this? :?

Sheffield doesn't have a barrier gateline! It was someone at the ticket office.

There are manual checks during the peaks and they're planning to reapply for listed building consent: http://www.sheffieldtelegraph.co.uk/headlines/Critics-signal-new-fight-over.6083910.jp

 

[ashworth]

I've also heard that some EMT are sometimes not very happy about split ticketing. Is it just at certain stations like Sheffield where staff can be a bit difficult.
I've always found the opposite at Chesterfield, where I often buy two Day Returns, splitting at Manchester for journeys to Preston/Blackpool etc or splitting at Sheffield for journeys to West and North Yorkshire.
The staff at Chesterfield couldn't be more co-operative and friendly and often comment that its the best way to get cheaper if you know how.

Once when asking for Day Returns from Hucknall to Nottingham and Nottingham to Birmingham the conductor on the train was very helpful by suggesting that I split at Bulwell rather than Nottingham as it would save me an extra 50p.
Not all EMT staff have a problem with this. perhaps its just coming from the management.

 

[Helvellyn]

The OEP does nothing at present.

In future, it will prevent you getting a PF - if the TOCs ever enforce it (which they won't because 3% of people are bothering!) - it doesn't do anything other than tell an RPI (If one turns up) that you intend to go somewhere outside the zones on your season ticket.

Really? So why have we been told SWT Revenue will issue Penalty Fares on the train if someone does not have an OEP and has travelled outside the validity of their Travelcard, e.g. Z12 but is on a train in Zone 4.

Also, we Guards have been told to apply Condition 2 for someone with no OEP.

Sheffield doesn't have a barrier gateline! It was someone at the ticket office. Does Tim Shoveller make daft claims? Got any examples?

My point was you've started a thread based on what "someone" told you as though it's fact, and my tongue in cheek question was to see where this came from.

 

[yorkie]

Really? So why have we been told SWT Revenue will issue Penalty Fares on the train if someone does not have an OEP and has travelled outside the validity of their Travelcard, e.g. Z12 but is on a train in Zone 4.

Also, we Guards have been told to apply Condition 2 for someone with no OEP.

Yes, really! Are you telling me that TfL are lying, or SWT are not co-operating with TfL? Just in case you've not read it, see this post. I'd be very interested to hear which it is.

SWT have an owner with a history of controversy so it wouldn't surprise me if they're up to dirty tricks.

My point was you've started a thread based on what "someone" told you as though it's fact, and my tongue in cheek question was to see where this came from.

Ah, so you were just being obstructive (again). That "someone" is a member of this forum who I know very well so it is a "fact".

 

[John @ home]

The idea is that the OEP will correctly deduct the correct PAYG fare

The OEP does nothing at present.

If this thread on uk.railway is correct, there is one nasty thing which OEP does at present.

What an OEP does is to switch on the 'entry charge' system that normally only applies to pure PAYG journeys - thus with an OEP, when an Oyster card loaded with a Travelcard is touched-in at a station within the Travelcard's zonal validity, the 'entry charge' is debited from the card. The passenger thus has the incentive to touch-out at the end of the journey whereupon the correct fare will be charged (by means of refunding the entry charge minus the appropriate extension fare) - if the passenger does not do this, then they'd be hit with the full 'entry charge'.

As an example of this, let's assume that a passenger lives in Wimbledon and works in central London, so they have a London Zones Z123 season ticket Travelcard on their Oyster card. They also have PAYG on their card for the odd occasion when they need to travel within Zones 4-9 + W. Their PAYG balance is topped up automatically by £20 from their bank account every time the balance falls below £5. This happens every 2 or 3 months. Tomorrow they need to travel to Bromley South, so this morning they loaded an OEP on to their card.

There will be no problem with the journey to and from Bromley South tomorrow. The maximum peak fare of £6 is deducted when they touch in at Charing Cross and £4.20 is credited when they touch out at Bromley South, so they are correctly charged the Peak Boundary Zone 3 - Bromley South PAYG single of £1.80. Returning home later, the maximum off-peak fare of £4.30 is deducted when they touch in at Bromley South and £2.80 is credited when they touch out at Wimbledon, so they are correctly charged the Off-Peak Bromley South - Boundary Zone 3 PAYG single of £1.50.

But today they need to travel to Tunbridge Wells. This is outside the Zones, so they can't use Oyster. So this afternoon, just prior to going to Tunbridge Wells they went to a ticket office and bought a Boundary Zone 3 - Tunbridge Wells return ticket. They then touch in at Charing Cross. It's peak time, so the effect of this is to deduct £6 from their balance. There are no Oyster readers at Tunbridge Wells, so they can't touch out. As a result, they lose £6. They have never encountered a problem like this before so they are not in the habit of checking their PAYG balance online. Therefore they never discover that they have lost £6. They only lost it by trying to be honest and loading an OEP on their card.

This problem was not mentioned at the London Travelwatch Fares & Ticketing meeting. I discovered it only by reading Mizter T's post on uk.railway. I'll raise it with the London Travelwatch Director, Research & Development. But London Travelwatch are already campaigning vigorously against OEP. We may have to go to the Office of Fair Trading to get this sorted.

 

[yorkie]

I think OEP is something so complicated, that even the people who invented the idea didn't (and possibly still don't...) realise the consequences of it.

I think some investigating is needed into SWT. If they are issuing PFs then this is at odds with TfL's claim. I consider that to be quite serious. I also consider it to be a misuse of the PF scheme, given how complex OEPs are. The average passenger doesn't have much chance of fully understanding it, given that they just want to travel and not read up on all the detail.

 

[Helvellyn]

Yes, really! Are you telling me that TfL are lying, or SWT are not co-operating with TfL? Just in case you've not read it, see this post. I'd be very interested to hear which it is.

From the post you link: -

"The holder is liable to a Penalty Fare if challenged when outside the validity of the season ticket." - Clearly states in summary to OEPs that a Penalty Fare can be issued if someone has travelled from the Zones covered by a Season on their Travelcard to a destination outside of that area. The phrase "is liable" is important there. Doesn't mean someone will or must be issued a Penalty Fare, just they can be.

"TfL reported that Penalty Fares on this issue are not yet being enforced." - TfL don't have the power to dictate to individual TOCs how to enforce their Penalty Fare schemes, so I'm not sure why they are saying they are not yet being enforced, as we have been briefed it is now an option open to Revenue staff. Also, the key word there is "yet", so they are not saying they won't be enforced.

"ATOC said that they have been at pains to suggest to train companies that they should adopt a softly softly approach in the initial stages." - ATOC is advising TOCs to go softly softly. They can't tell them. SWT did that in January. I will add that even now it's not a case of looking for everyone outside the validity of their Oyster Travelcard without an OEP so that they can be issued a Penalty Fare or sold a Condition 2 ticket. You question people, you look at the history of journeys made on the card, you look at their PAYG balance, you then make an informed decision about the course of action to take. That might be to explain what an OEP is, to say that without one they could be issued a Penalty Fare from revenue or sold a Condition 2 ticket by me, and to then issue a Penalty Fare warning to them. But if someone is beyond the validity of their Zones, has no OEP, is going to a station with no barriers and they only have 50p on their Oyster Card I'm probably going to sell them a Condition 2 ticket.

Ah, so you were just being obstructive (again). That "someone" is a member of this forum who I know very well so it is a "fact".

Okay, look at it this way yorkie. In many other threads when someone states that they were told this or that by someone, and it is dubious or wrong information, you're normally there asking "who, what, when", saying they should complain, the person needs retraining, etc, etc. Because this has been told to you by your friend in the Ticket Office we're meant to accept it as fact though? When it would be a major policy change, and against what the Conditions of Carriage allow? That is not fact, it is rumour. Maybe an informed rumour, but rumour nonetheless.

But today they need to travel to Tunbridge Wells. This is outside the Zones, so they can't use Oyster. So this afternoon, just prior to going to Tunbridge Wells they went to a ticket office and bought a Boundary Zone 3 - Tunbridge Wells return ticket. They then touch in at Charing Cross. It's peak time, so the effect of this is to deduct £6 from their balance. There are no Oyster readers at Tunbridge Wells, so they can't touch out. As a result, they lose £6. They have never encountered a problem like this before so they are not in the habit of checking their PAYG balance online. Therefore they never discover that they have lost £6. They only lost it by trying to be honest and loading an OEP on their card.

That should not happen though. If someone is travelling within the Zones covered by their Oyster Season then they don't need an OEP and should not have any entry charge taken from them. When an OEP is applied to an Oyster card it tells the system that the passenger is going beyond their Season ticket validity (but still in the Zones). When they touch in an entry charge is taken, as you state. When they touch out at Bromley South the entry charge is refunded and the correct fare for the journey taken. Again, as you state. But what also happens is that the OEP is removed from the Oyster Card. So the only way that they should have had an entry charge taken the next day was if they added an OEP again. As you state, Tunbridge Wells is outside the Zones so an entry charge would be taken and not refunded. But an OEP is not a permanent fixtiure on the card, and must be added before each journey that will take the passenger from the Zones covered by their Season to a destination outside of that area (but still in the Zones).

 

[yorkie]

Because this has been told to you by your friend in the Ticket Office we're meant to accept it as fact though? When it would be a major policy change, and against what the Conditions of Carriage allow? That is not fact, it is rumour. Maybe an informed rumour, but rumour nonetheless.

Surely it's not that difficult to grasp the concept that it is a fact that the claim was made by a member of staff at Sheffield, and of course I am not in any way suggesting it is a fact that the claim by the member of staff is genuine. Indeed, quite the opposite; I think it's absurd.

That should not happen though. If someone is travelling within the Zones covered by their Oyster Season then they don't need an OEP and should not have any entry charge taken from them. When an OEP is applied to an Oyster card it tells the system that the passenger is going beyond their Season ticket validity (but still in the Zones). When they touch in an entry charge is taken, as you state. When they touch out at Bromley South the entry charge is refunded and the correct fare for the journey taken. Again, as you state. But what also happens is that the OEP is removed from the Oyster Card. So the only way that they should have had an entry charge taken the next day was if they added an OEP again. As you state, Tunbridge Wells is outside the Zones so an entry charge would be taken and not refunded. But an OEP is not a permanent fixtiure on the card, and must be added before each journey that will take the passenger from the Zones covered by their Season to a destination outside of that area (but still in the Zones).

But the passenger has had to plan in advance to get his OEP, so he's done that. Then another journey requirement has cropped up. There appears to be no way to prevent the OEP being used 'early'. It only "shouldn't happen" because the concept hasn't been thought of yet. This is because it was rushed through without proper consideration of the implications.

In some cases Oyster is less flexible than paper tickets, specifically the OEP example quoted above and also when using split ticketing.

 

[Broken Viking]

I've used split tickets on EMT before (including buying them) and it's never been an issue. One guard did advise me that the train must stop at the station, but I already knew that.

I havn't bought splits at EMT stations yet...But that said, I've never been queried by the staff at Derby when going there and buying - Of all the things to be buying in the East Midlands - A Woking -> Farnborough SDS!
(Of course, the splits that I use to go FNB > MYB > HWY > BMO > DBY involve the above SDS, which I normally buy at some point on the way home as I never know beforehand when I'm making my return journey.)

One thing I would advise though is to only show the current ticket to an inspector when asked, as I know some have had issues where an inspector has marked a ticket and a crew change has occurred before/at the split point and the second inspector sees the ticket already marked and assumes it was used.

I've had a similar issue in the past when a VXC Guard stamped the wrong portion of my ticket from Bangor -> Farnborough a few years ago, and I was worried that it might've invalidated my return portion. Fortunateley I'd merely bought it as a contingency just in case I was returning within the month (It only cost a quid more) and in the end I didn't actually make use of it.

As a result of the above though, I now take care to make sure that I'm presenting only the relevant portion of my ticket(s) to prevent any such mis-stamping.

On the subject though, I doubt that ATOC will get away with removing the right to split tickets, since it would interfere with people's ability to change their travel plans, especially for those on TOC-only and advance tickets where excess is not available.

If I understand correctly, the right to split tickets (And I'll emphesise the word right there...As opposed to permission or privilege) is a default legacy from BR days, and AFAIK AToC don't have any rights to tamper with such legacy rules. If they did, all trains would've been upgraded to First Class only services years ago! hock:

 

[Helvellyn]

But the passenger has had to plan in advance to get his OEP, so he's done that. Then another journey requirement has cropped up. There appears to be no way to prevent the OEP being used 'early'. It only "shouldn't happen" because the concept hasn't been thought of yet. This is because it was rushed through without proper consideration of the implications.

But the example given doesn't state that was the case. I do agree though that if someone puts an OEP on, then doesn't use it as intended they will run into problems then. Which is why OEPs need to be added to TVMs so passengers can get them at any National Rail station within the Zones.

 

[north]

I am fairly sure that OEPs can be added at Finsbury Park TVMs... but will check tomorrow.

I do think that it would be fairly mental for passengers to be PFed for not adding something that only enthusiasts have any clue about and is only valid from a ticket office.

 

[John @ home]

But the passenger has had to plan in advance to get his OEP, so he's done that. Then another journey requirement has cropped up.

But the example given doesn't state that was the case.

I think it does!

Tomorrow they need to travel to Bromley South, so this morning they loaded an OEP on to their card.

But today they need to travel to Tunbridge Wells.

 

[Chapeltom]

The plan is ridiculous. I've never had a problem if I'm honest with Sheffield station and the lack of barriers is funny compared to Manchester Piccadilly who have security checking train tickets at ridiculous hours!

 

[yorkie]

The plan is ridiculous. I've never had a problem if I'm honest with Sheffield station and the lack of barriers is funny compared to Manchester Piccadilly who have security checking train tickets at ridiculous hours!

Maybe there's more dodgy characters in Manchester. After all, there was that fight a few of us witnessed after the GMPTE Challenge meet! I've not seen too many drunken people around Sheffield on an evening as I see at Manchester either.

 

[Deerfold]

Maybe there's more dodgy characters in Manchester. After all, there was that fight a few of us witnessed after the GMPTE Challenge meet! I've not seen too many drunken people around Sheffield on an evening as I see at Manchester either.

Oddly, I find Sheffield to be one of the stations I avoid most when it's late (and by that I only mean after the evening peak). I have had more abuse and threats of violence there from random drunks than any other station I know - I used to get a train to London around 2030 fairly regularly there a couple of years ago.

Although I also seem to be the only person who never gets their ticket checked at Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[Bellwater]

Yes, really! Are you telling me that TfL are lying, or SWT are not co-operating with TfL? Just in case you've not read it, see this post. I'd be very interested to hear which it is.

SWT have an owner with a history of controversy so it wouldn't surprise me if they're up to dirty tricks.

More Stagecoach bashing da da yada yada :roll: