London-Dublin rail-sail tickets: Any Permitted Route?

[BRX]

Can anyone tell me what routing conditions apply to these tickets?

- Is it "any permitted"?

- Also, are they marked "London Terminals" or "London Euston"?

- And finally...can I break the journey overnight as per normal off-peak tickets; ie as long as I continue the journey before 12 midday the next day?

Thanks in advance

 

[A60K]

Can anyone tell me what routing conditions apply to these tickets?

- Is it "any permitted"?

- Also, are they marked "London Terminals" or "London Euston"?

- And finally...can I break the journey overnight as per normal off-peak tickets; ie as long as I continue the journey before 12 midday the next day?

Route on the tickets is "+HLYHD STENA CIV", so the effect is the same as Any Permitted between London and Holyhead. Origin/destination is "London Terminals" rather than Euston. Not entirely sure about the 12 noon next day rule - I know the Stranraer rail-sail tickets are valid the next day though (given the length of time taken to Stranraer and the ferry frequency it's often necessary to break overnight).

One priceless piece of information from Avantix though: "Break of journey on rail leg only", so don't go getting ideas about breaking your ship journey halfway across the Irish Sea...

 

[John @ home]

Can anyone tell me what routing conditions apply to these tickets?

- Is it "any permitted"?

Not quite. The London - Dublin fares available and routes printed on the tickets are

LONDON - DUBLIN CITY (CIE route 00983 - +HLYHD STENA CIV
ECS - ECONOMY SINGLE ATW 6C Adult @£ 31.50
ECR - ECONOMY RETURN ATW 6C Adult @£ 63.00

LONDON - DUBLIN CONN (CIE route 00983 - +HLYHD STENA CIV
ECS - ECONOMY SINGLE ATW 6C Adult @£ 31.50
ECR - ECONOMY RETURN ATW 6C Adult @£ 63.00

LONDON - DUBLIN FYPT I.F. route 00980 - +HLYHD IRISHF CIV
ECS - ECONOMY SINGLE ATW 6K Adult @£ 30.50
ECR - ECONOMY RETURN ATW 6K Adult @£ 61.00

LONDON - DUBLIN PRSE (CIE route 00983 - +HLYHD STENA CIV
ECS - ECONOMY SINGLE ATW 6C Adult @£ 31.50
ECR - ECONOMY RETURN ATW 6C Adult @£ 63.00

LONDON - DUBLINPORT STENA (CIE route 00983 - +HLYHD STENA CIV
ECS - ECONOMY SINGLE ATW 6C Adult @£ 30.50
ECR - ECONOMY RETURN ATW 6C Adult @£ 61.00

I say not quite Any Permitted because I am aware of some slight routeing differences. We discovered last week in this thread that DIDCOT PARKWAY - CARRICKFERGUS NI is route +HLYHD STENA CIV, and as a result of the '+' cross-London marker is valid via London, but DIDCOT PARKWAY - HOLYHEAD route ANY PERMITTED is only valid via Banbury. So I do know that sometimes SailRail tickets have greater route validity than "any permitted" tickets. I don't know whether they ever have less validity than "any permitted" tickets, and I don't know anywhere in the public domain where their route validity is defined. It is not obvious whether the GB National Routeing Guide (NRG) applies or not. In the absence of anything better, the NRG is what I use.

are they marked "London Terminals" or "London Euston"?

Fares for all the above are issued from "London Terminals".

can I break the journey overnight as per normal off-peak tickets; ie as long as I continue the journey before 12 midday the next day?

The restrictions for codes 6C and 6K above are

Restriction : 6C
Shipping Links 6C Stena Line
Ticket types ECS and ECR

Outward Travel
Valid on date on ticket only. Valid on Stena Line services port to port only. Reservations are compulsory on the ship leg. Break of journey on rail leg only. No unaccompanied children under 16 permitted to travel.

Return Travel
Valid on date on ticket only. Valid on Stena Line services port to port only. Reservations are compulsory on the ship leg. Break of journey on rail leg only. No unaccompanied children under 16 permitted to travel.

Restriction : 6K
Shipping Links 6K Irish Ferries
Ticket types ECS and ECR

Outward Travel
Valid on date on ticket only. Valid on Irish Ferries services port to port only. Reservations are compulsory on the ship leg. Break of journey on rail leg only. No unaccompanied children under 16 permitted to travel.

Return Travel
Valid on date on ticket only. Valid on Irish Ferries services port to port only. Reservations are compulsory on the ship leg. Break of journey on rail leg only. No unaccompanied children under 16 permitted to travel.

I have no specific information on overnight break of journey, but for some very long journeys such as

PENZANCE - CORK CITY (CIE route HLYHD STENA CIV ECS - ECONOMY SINGLE ATW 6C £ 48.50
WICK - LIMERICK (CIE route HLYHD IRISHF CIV ECS - ECONOMY SINGLE ATW 6K £ 48.50

it will be almost unavoidable.

 

[BRX]

Thanks for all that info.

Interesting to see that there are tickets to Dublin stations (I presume CONN = Connolly, PRSE = Pearse, CITY = ?) because in the past I've only been offered to Dun Laoghaire or the Ferryport.

It appears from the other comments that you can buy through tickets to other destinations within Ireland...I had thought this was no longer possible for some reason because it doesn't seem to be mentioned on the rail/sail website.


Is there such a ticket as London-Dublin via Fishguard/Rosslare?

 

[tony_mac]

It appears from the other comments that you can buy through tickets to other destinations within Ireland...I had thought this was no longer possible for some reason because it doesn't seem to be mentioned on the rail/sail website.

Is there such a ticket as London-Dublin via Fishguard/Rosslare?

If you are looking at the sailrail.co.uk site, through tickets are available except on the Rosslare route.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, as far as I know you can get a ticket to anywhere in Ireland via any of the routes. There is a zonal pricing structure.

Yes you can get a ticket to Dublin via Fishguard, but that would be issued as a ticket to Rosslare with the relevant zonally priced add-on to Dublin.

AFAIK you can do some really odd routes like Penzance to Rosslare via Stranraer and Belfast. Obviously this would cost more than going via Fishguard and would be priced accordingly.

 

[BRX]

Yes, as far as I know you can get a ticket to anywhere in Ireland via any of the routes. There is a zonal pricing structure.

Is this published anywhere? Or only in the NFM?

Yes you can get a ticket to Dublin via Fishguard, but that would be issued as a ticket to Rosslare with the relevant zonally priced add-on to Dublin.

Would be interesting to see what the pricing is on that.

 

[yorkie]

Is this published anywhere? Or only in the NFM?

Not sure. I did pick up a leaflet when I used the service, but I can't find it now, sorry!

I have found this, from NFM99: http://yorkie.southtpe.co.uk/RL99%20D.pdf

Not very user friendly but better than nothing

 

[tony_mac]

The help text on the sailrail site says, for the Fishguard to Rosslare route

Through fares are only available to Rosslare on this crossing. You will need to purchase an onward rail fare upon arrival

 

[yorkie]

It used to be available.

From NFM99:
(Page 18 ("D15") of the PDF above)

"11. Pricing Zone Maps
Use the pricing zone maps for each route to calculate the
through fare.
Firstly find out which zone the origin station in Britain is in.
Using the zone code find out the fare to the Irish harbour
(Rosslare or Cork Ringaskiddy) from the fare table. If the
destination is beyond the harbour (Cork City or Zones 1 to 5),
use the Irish map to find out the Irish zone and add the
appropriate supplement from the fare table to the fare to
Ireland."

Also, see map on page 21 ("D17")

It's possible that they've been withdrawn, or simply that they are not available from their website.

 

[John @ home]

Interesting to see that there are tickets to Dublin stations (I presume CONN = Connolly, PRSE = Pearse, CITY = ?) because in the past I've only been offered to Dun Laoghaire or the Ferryport.

Yes, for CONN and PRSE. DUBLIN HEUS also exists as a destination in the GB National Fares Manual, but there are no actual fares. My guess is that a ticket to DUBLIN CITY includes ship to the port and a bus to the city centre.

It appears from the other comments that you can buy through tickets to other destinations within Ireland...I had thought this was no longer possible for some reason because it doesn't seem to be mentioned on the rail/sail website.

Yes. You can buy a ticket from just about any GB National Rail station to just about any CIE or NIR (but not DART) station.

sailrail.co.uk is a very poor web site. It is owned by the GB Association of Train Operating Companies and is just as bad as their other sites such as the GB National Routeing Guide. I can hardly make it work at all using Firefox. But with Internet Explorer the Fare Finder will offer fares between just about any British station and just about Irish station.

A very good guide to rail travel between Britain and Ireland is on this page from The Man in Seat 61. But beware of the booking engine on that page. It links to raileasy. We do not recommend raileasy because it charges booking fees, delivery fees and credit card fees. You can avoid all these by booking in person at a railway station. I am not aware of any additional fees or charges if you use the phone booking service on the sailrail.co.uk site.

Is there such a ticket as London-Dublin via Fishguard/Rosslare?

There certainly used to be through fares by the southern corridor, using both Fishguard - Rosslare and Pembroke - Rosslare. I used one in April 2007. But it seems that through fares to Irish stations are no longer available by this corridor and tickets can be bought between GB stations and Rosslare Harbour only.

Inclusive rail+sea tickets are sold from any UK railway station to Rosslare Harbour via this route, but no longer beyond Rosslare as onward train connections from Rosslare are poor.
http://www.seat61.com/Ireland.htm

There is one error in this page from The Man in Seat 61. It states that break of journey is not permitted.

until 22 February 2010 Can I stop off on the way?
No, not using one of these cheap train & ferry tickets. These cheap and flexible Britain-Ireland fares are actually cheaper than most domestic fares between London and (for example) Chester or Holyhead, so you cannot break your journey, only travel straight through to or from Ireland. Though that doesn't mean you can't wander round Holyhead town centre whilst waiting for your ferry! Of course, if you really want to stop off, nothing stops you buying separate tickets, for example a normal ticket London-Chester, then a Chester-Ireland train+ferry ticket, but this costs a lot more than a London-Ireland through ticket.

This used to be the case but was changed in May 2009, perhaps as a result of an EU Directive. The current position is

Ticket types ECS and ECR - Outward & Return Travel

Valid on date on ticket only. Valid on Stena Line services port to port only. Reservations are compulsory on the ship leg. Break of journey on rail leg only. No unaccompanied children under 16 permitted to travel.

EDIT - I reported the break of journey error to Mark Smith, The Man in Seat 61, less tham 24 hours ago, and I am impressed that the page has already been updated.

from 23 February 2010 Can I stop off on the way?
Yes, you are now entitled to stop off ('break your journey') on the rail part of the journey, although you must continue the journey the same day, you cannot stop off overnight.

 

[BRX]

I don't think that it is clear that you cannot break these tickets overnight, for the following reasons:
1 - when I look them up on NRE they are described as "off peak". As we all know, following the great fares simplification of 2008, everything is super-simple now so I dutifully look up the T@Cs for "off peak" tickets on the ATOC site. There, it starts off telling me that "off peak day" tickets are only valid on the day on the ticket. It doesn't say anything about "off peak singles" or "off peak returns". As far as I can tell from publicly available information, my ticket is an off peak single. Anyway, it goes on to tell me that for "off peak" tickets you are allowed to break the journey unless conditions state otherwise. As far as I know as a member of the public no such conditions apply. And if I have the fares manual then I know that it is stated that break of journey is allowed. Going back to the "off peak" T@Cs, I am told that I am allowed to break my journey overnight as long as I continue before 12 the next day. So as far as I know from information on NRE, I am allowed to break my journey.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/offpeak_conditions.html

2- On NRE it states that I can check the validity of my ticket on certain trains by entering the details into the journey planner and seeing if my fare shows up against those trains. When I try various journeys to Dublin that mean travelling overnight, my fare shows up against these journeys, which immediately flags the "valid on ticket date only" condition as contradictory. It seems that the best interpretation here is that this actually means it is valid for journeys started on the ticket date.

3 - as others have said there are plenty of journeys on the railsail tickets which are impossible without an overnight stop.

Anyway, I have just bought a £30.50 ticket from Ealing Broadway to Dublin. The national routing guide tells me this is valid via reading and oxford (well, a normal any permitted ticket to Holyhead is valid on that route, at least). I am now en route to Oxford where I am going to spend the night and I shall resume my journey in the morning, and see whether I get challenged!

 

[bnm]

I don't think that it is clear that you cannot break these tickets overnight, for the following reasons:
1 - when I look them up on NRE they are described as "off peak". As we all know, following the great fares simplification of 2008, everything is super-simple now so I dutifully look up the T@Cs for "off peak" tickets on the ATOC site. There, it starts off telling me that "off peak day" tickets are only valid on the day on the ticket. It doesn't say anything about "off peak singles" or "off peak returns". As far as I can tell from publicly available information, my ticket is an off peak single. Anyway, it goes on to tell me that for "off peak" tickets you are allowed to break the journey unless conditions state otherwise. As far as I know as a member of the public no such conditions apply. And if I have the fares manual then I know that it is stated that break of journey is allowed. Going back to the "off peak" T@Cs, I am told that I am allowed to break my journey overnight as long as I continue before 12 the next day. So as far as I know from information on NRE, I am allowed to break my journey.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/offpeak_conditions.html

2- On NRE it states that I can check the validity of my ticket on certain trains by entering the details into the journey planner and seeing if my fare shows up against those trains. When I try various journeys to Dublin that mean travelling overnight, my fare shows up against these journeys, which immediately flags the "valid on ticket date only" condition as contradictory. It seems that the best interpretation here is that this actually means it is valid for journeys started on the ticket date.

3 - as others have said there are plenty of journeys on the railsail tickets which are impossible without an overnight stop.

Anyway, I have just bought a £30.50 ticket from Ealing Broadway to Dublin. The national routing guide tells me this is valid via reading and oxford (well, a normal any permitted ticket to Holyhead is valid on that route, at least). I am now en route to Oxford where I am going to spend the night and I shall resume my journey in the morning, and see whether I get challenged!

Whilst there may be no explicit rule preventing an overnight BoJ, surely the fact that you have to make a compulsory ferry reservation, which will tie you to one sailing, will prevent a BoJ on the single or outward journey to Ireland.

Of course, with journeys where an overnight stop will be needed regardless (say Penzance - Dublin Port via Holyhead) then your ferry resevation date will be one day later than your train ticket start date - This, I believe, gives you the opportunity to start and break your train journey as you wish.

 

[defitzi]

It used to be available.

From NFM99:
(Page 18 ("D15") of the PDF above)

"11. Pricing Zone Maps
Use the pricing zone maps for each route to calculate the
through fare.
Firstly find out which zone the origin station in Britain is in.
Using the zone code find out the fare to the Irish harbour
(Rosslare or Cork Ringaskiddy) from the fare table. If the
destination is beyond the harbour (Cork City or Zones 1 to 5),
use the Irish map to find out the Irish zone and add the
appropriate supplement from the fare table to the fare to
Ireland."

Also, see map on page 21 ("D17")

It's possible that they've been withdrawn, or simply that they are not available from their website.

:rolleems Irish Rail may have pulled out of Sail?Rail (sneakily as always where this devious semi-State body is concerned, and without telling anyone.[/I]

 

[John @ home]

seems Irish Rail may have pulled out of Sail?Rail

Through tickets to/from stations in Ireland are still available via Stranraer or Holyhead. Tickets to stations in Ireland via Rosslare have been withdrawn due to poor ship/train connections.

There is a regular fully-integrated train+ferry service from London Paddington to Rosslare in Southern Ireland via Fishguard. Inclusive rail+sea tickets are sold from any UK railway station to Rosslare Harbour via this route, but no longer beyond Rosslare as onward train connections from Rosslare are poor.
http://www.seat61.com/Ireland.htm

 

[BRX]

So far my ticket (dated yesterday) has not been questioned at the gates at oxford, by the crosscountry ticket inspector, or by the WSMR inspector.

The only thing that concerns me a little is that when I was sold the ticket, I wasn't offered or given a ferry reservation.

 

[defitzi]

Through tickets to/from stations in Ireland are still available via Stranraer or Holyhead. Tickets to stations in Ireland via Rosslare have been withdrawn due to poor ship/train connections.

Through tickets to ANY station in Ireland, Mr 61? or a handful of selected stations? Or indeed any>:-?
Since Sail/Rail is supposed to work both ways-my experience is that it DOES NOT DO SO!. Tickets are only available from Ireland to the UK from Irish rail or Stena- P&O (Dublin-Liverpool; Larne-Cairnryan-nearest port to Stranraer) does not participate.
Norfolk Lines( Belfast-Dublin -Birkenhead also eschews Sail/Rail.
I would be muich obliged if you could advise me as to which (if any) Irish rail stations do sell through tickets to the UK -by any route.
Through tickets by any European route (along with most other rail and/or ship tickets ARE sold by NIR Travel at Belfast's Great Victoria Street (Personal Mon Sat only) but this admirable and versatile omni-travel agency is NOT a railway TICKET OFFICE as such but a travel agency owned and operated by NIR -which does not participate in Sail Rail!
Hence if you want Sail/Rail from Belfast you must buy your ticket from Stena at its new dockside term in al office- almost two miles from the City Centre.
Many folk here in Ireland would, I suspect, be delighted if Mr 61 or indeed anyone, could advise where to buy Sail? Rail other than from travel agents or directly from either Irish Ferries or Stena's port terminal offices-again, like Stena Belfast, circa a couple of miles from the city centre.
Sail/Rail is not bookable online in Ireland nor by postal booking either!

 

[John @ home]

Through tickets to ANY station in Ireland, Mr 61? or a handful of selected stations? Or indeed any

As far as I am aware, Mark Smith - the Man in Seat 61 - does not read this forum. He can be contacted via his web site http://www.seat61.com

 

[defitzi]

As far as I am aware, Mark Smith - the Man in Seat 61 - does not read this forum. He can be contacted via his web site http://www.seat61.com

Oh-doesn't he? Surprising the number of post he seems to have made then (see previous posts on this subject). Anyway, if he does not read this forum , then it is his loss. He really should read it -it is a gold mine of useful and factual information- I wish I had found it ages ago.
Oh and my Gran, always advised me that I should never, ever, engage in conversation with strangers on a train, no matter what seat they were travelling in...

 

[OwlMan]

Through tickets to ANY station in Ireland, Mr 61? or a handful of selected stations? Or indeed any>:-?
Since Sail/Rail is supposed to work both ways-my experience is that it DOES NOT DO SO!. Tickets are only available from Ireland to the UK from Irish rail or Stena- P&O (Dublin-Liverpool; Larne-Cairnryan-nearest port to Stranraer) does not participate.
Norfolk Lines( Belfast-Dublin -Birkenhead also eschews Sail/Rail.

Sail Rail is a partnership betweebn IE, various British TOCs, Stenna Line and Irish Ferries. P&O & Norfolk Lines are not members
Tickets are only available from the originating country - if travelling from UK from UK TOCS. From Ireland from IE.

For tickets from Ireland IE advise

3. SailRail to the UK

SailRail is an alliance of Iarnród Éireann, UK Train operating companies and Ferry companies operating on the Irish Sea. The group offers through fares from Ireland to the UK as an attractive alternative to budget airline travel - offering guaranteed low cost fares and reduced end-to-end journey times. The same fare applies no matter what time of year you wish to travel or how far in advance you book and there are no hidden taxes, the price you see is the price you pay!!

For example
Portlaoise to London via Dublin €52 each way
Dublin to Manchester €37 each way
Cork to Cardiff via Rosslare €50 each way

For further information or to purchase your ticket, please contact our sales team on (01) 703 1884 (outside Ireland 00353 1 703 1884 Monday to Friday only 09.00-17.00) or email europeanrail@irishrail.ie

Peter

 

[Greenback]

Yes, well, I emailed IE some time ago to find out the price of a ticket from Cork to Swansea via Dublin. They never replied!

 

[John @ home]

Yes, well, I emailed IE some time ago to find out the price of a ticket from Cork to Swansea via Dublin.

In GBP, it's 48.50. I don't know the price in EUR.

 

[defitzi]

In GBP, it's 48.50. I don't know the price in EUR.

yes but that's an internal Irish price:the question here is: is Irish Rail still participating in Sail/Rail?
The answer wpould seem to be apparently not- ceratinly if you are i n Ireland. If it is, then surely through tickets should be avail;able from the more important Irish Rail stations or at least an office-offices-sales points open and available to prospective travellers :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In GBP, it's 48.50. I don't know the price in EUR.

on Irish Ferries site just now the fare quoted Dublin/Manchester is £27.50. It would be surprising of Stena charged differently for the same Sail/rail route.:roll: