GWR Intercity Express Train (IEP) initial diagrams & allocations

[FGW_DID]

Wonder if GWR realise that Take That are in Cardiff on Saturday 8 June and whether they will have 5 coach 800’s on the route - as they did a couple of weeks ago when the Spice Girls were in the city?

https://www.principalitystadium.wales/event/take-that-greatest-hits-live-2019/

None would have been booked as 5 only!

 

[Goldfish62]

You are almost contradicting yourself.. Plymouth/Penzance will not be getting 9 cars over a 10 splitting just because it takes a while to do it, not how railway operations work. Clearly, considering you work in the railway, you’d have a knowledge of the basics in diagramming.

When SWT overhauled their timetable in 2004 they reduced the amount of splitting and joining to aid reliability. When the IEP was in the early stages of being specified electric trains being hauled over non-wired lines by diesel locos were ruled out due to the time taken for coupling and uncoupling.

So clearly such things have been a factor in railway operations, at least in the recent past.

 

[irish_rail]

When SWT overhauled their timetable in 2004 they reduced the amount of splitting and joining to aid reliability. When the IEP was in the early stages of being specified electric trains being hauled over non-wired lines by diesel locos were ruled out due to the time taken for coupling and uncoupling.

So clearly such things have been a factor in railway operations, at least in the recent past.

Exactly. When it suits they want to cut down delays but not when it's inconvenient. 1a79 13 late off Plymouth today after an on time arrival due to the need to couple up.

 

[JN114]

Not quite the whole story - it wasn’t an on time arrival, it was held outside waiting for the driver of the additional attachment to move the additional unit back to the London end of the platform....

It was diagrammed as 10 through from Penzance, I don’t know what happened to it’s partner as Long Rock had enough (and right 5/9 mix) units last night.

I’d take a late, full-length train over an ontime 5 vice 10; if the option to strengthen was on the table.

 

[jimm]

I have never once said I don't believe the Cotswold peaks should be anything except 9 cars. What I disagree with is the off peak use of 9 car sets to Hereford and the likes all the while delays are being accrued at Plymouth consistently due to trouble splitting and joining 5 car sets. How long before passengers down here say enough is enough with the frequent delays and abandon the railways? Forgive me for looking out for the customers who pay my wages ......

I understand that now but your posts for a long period have always been 'Cotswold Line, nine-car, this that and the other, all bad, all nine-cars should go to Cornwall, etc' with off-peak not being mentioned, while we have also had various things about the Cotswold Line just being a commuter route and that there is somehow something different between a three-hour journey to Plymouth and a three-hour journey to Hereford and so on.

And the fact of the matter is that once a set disappears off to Cornwall at the end of the morning peak, it ain't going to get back to London in time to work a peak service our of Paddington to anywhere - unlike one working an off-peak train goes to Oxford, Worcester or Hereford.

As I have noted in another thread, some of the equivalent services to off-peak Cotswold Line trains currently worked by nine-car trains will likely switch to five-car sets in December - and no one around here will start bleating about that, as some of us actually recognise that different sizes of train are appropriate at different point in the day/week/year.

The state of the track in Plymouth station when it comes to coupling problems has been questioned here and elsewhere - see the GW Passengers' Forum http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=18792.1680 - and problems of coupling related to uneven track at Reading affecting 387s and back in the early 1990s at Paddington affecting coupling of Turbos inter early days noted as well. Both of the latter cases were solved without resorting to using long, fixed-formation trains.

I'm touched by your concern for customers down there who play your wages - the customers elsewhere on GWR also help to pay them, but you have often dismissed those customers as mere commuters who don't count for some reason and should just expect to squeeze into five-car sets come what may.

 

[bb21]

Now now, we are all adults. I removed some heated exchanges but am sure we can move on.

Can I suggest that we look forward please. Digging out old claims isn't exactly going to be helpful to anyone and can only inflame matters.

It's a big topic many people feel passionate about. Let's keep it on the civil, take a step back if needed sometimes, and lower the need for further intervention. Thank you all.

 

[MikeHoward940]

Does anyone have a list of the GWR Class 800 diagrams for Monday to Saturday please? I have looked on other sites and can only get bits and pieces. Any help would be very much appreciated.
Cheers Mike

 

[SWRtrainfan]

Does anyone have a list of the GWR Class 800 diagrams for Monday to Saturday please? I have looked on other sites and can only get bits and pieces. Any help would be very much appreciated.
Cheers Mike

Class 800s do all services from Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads and Cardiff/Swansea. They also do services to Oxford(shared with a few Turbos), Cheltenham Spa, Worcester, Great Malvern and Hereford, but these may occasionally be operated by Turbos.

 

[cactustwirly]

Class 800s do all services from Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads, Cardiff/Swansea. They also do services to Oxford(shared with a few Turbos), Cheltenham Spa, Worcester, Great Malvern and Hereford, but these may occasionally be operated by Turbos

Basically everything from London to the West, Bristol, South Wales etc

 

[SWRtrainfan]

Basically everything from London to the West, Bristol, South Wales etc

Yes indeed. Are all of the services from Paddington to Great Malvern/Worcester/Hereford/Cheltenham Spa 100% IETs?

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes indeed. Are all of the services from Paddington to Great Malvern/Worcester/Hereford/Cheltenham Spa 100% IETs?

Not 100% sure, there maybe still a turbo diagram to Worcester/Great Malvern

 

[JonathanH]

Not 100% sure, there maybe still a turbo diagram to Worcester/Great Malvern

Two turbos, but only one working to Paddington

2W10 0514 Oxford to Worcester Foregate Street
2E92 0651 Worcester Foregate Street to Didcot Parkway

2E20 0819 Reading to Moreton-in-Marsh
1P23 0950 Moreton-in-Marsh to London Paddington

On Bank Holidays this is a Turbo

1W31 1522 London Paddington to Great Malvern
1P44 1830 Great Malvern to London Paddington

 

[Siemens Staines]

Does anyone have a list of the GWR Class 800 diagrams for Monday to Saturday please? I have looked on other sites and can only get bits and pieces. Any help would be very much appreciated.
Cheers Mike

This is an update to my previous post #1827. It is derived from weekday Thames Valley platform end notes and tiger, so it is not official. I apologise for only using headcodes, but as noted previously there are too many trains to type out in detail. The diagrams I show as 800 or 802 will be diagrammed one type or the other but in practice there is a lot of day to day variation (plus 9 vice 10 or 10 vice 9). Likewise the sets that go on to North Pole(NPO) during the day will have a booked next working but in practice maintenance and other operational requirements mean that there is no fixed pattern as to what they do next.

(5) 800/802
1W12 1P22 1W23 1P33 1D34 1P41 1D38 1P48
1D13 1P16 1W19 1P29 1W31 1P44 1K34 1K37
1K03 1K02 1K09 1K08 1K17 1K14 1K23 1K20 1K29 1K26 1K35 1D43
1K05 1D15 1P19 1D22 1P28 1W29 1P42
1P03 1W16 1P27 NPO
2K24 1K07 1K06 1K15 1K12 1K21 1K18 2K65 2K74 1K31
2K22 2K21 2K30 2K27 2K36 1K13 1K10 1K19 1K16 1K25 NPO
1L40 1D24 1P30 1G56

(10) 800/802
1C01 1L48 1C15 1A23 1B69
1B05 1L52 1C17 1A25 1B79
1C03 1A11 1C12 1A20 1B55
1L01 1B09 1L46 1C14 1A22 1B63
1A02 1B10 1L55 1C19 1A26 1U28
1L05 1C05 1A13 1B35 1L86 1C29
1A03 1B12 1L51 1B40 1L90 (5)1D41 1P50
1L08 1C06 1A14 1B37 1L74 1C26 2M70
1A04 1B15 1L62 1C21 1A28 1B88
1L14 1C07 1A15 1C16 1A24 1B76
1A06 1C08 1A16 1B42 1L82 1C28
2Y03 1A07 1C09 1A17 1B46 1L92 1C33
1L24 1B22 1L60 1B51 1L94
1L34 1C11 1A18 1C20 1A29 1C31
1L42 1B31 1L68 1C24 1A37

(9) 800/802
1W11 1P14 1B20 1L66 1J91
1C02 1A10 1B27 1L65 1C22
1P80 1W14 1P25 1D26 1P32 1W33 1P47
1G11 1L50 1G38 1L80 1B81
1P12 1D18 1P24 1W25 1P36 1W36 1P49
1L16 1B17 1L54 1C18 1A27 1G88
1L20 1G21 1L58 1B48 1L88 1W39
1P10 1W01 1P39 1D37 1P45 1C32
1P18 1C10 1A19 1W32 1P40 1W04
1L32 1C77 1A90 1G70 1T48
1A09 1B25 1L71 1C25 1A33 1B94
1G02 1L36 1B28 1L76 1C27
1L38 1C13 1A21 1B59 1L96
1K71 NPO
1L10 NPO
1A70 NPO
1L28 NPO
1A08 NPO
1P07 1K04 1K11 NPO
1C72 1A83 NPO
1P04 1W00 1P31 NPO
NPO 1G29 1L67 1W02 1P51
NPO 1W27 1P37 1W03
NPO 1D28 1P34 1D35 1P43 1D40
NPO 1G47 1L91 1B91
NPO 1C89 1A98
NPO 1C23 1A31 1W42
NPO 1G60
NPO 1J93 1A95
NPO 1C36

(10) 802
(5)1P02 (10)1C04 1A93 1C96
1A71 1C74 1A87 1C90
1A77 1C80 1A35
1A79 1C82 1A96 1C98
1A81 1C84
1A82 1C86

(9) 802
1C71 1A88 1C92
1A73 1C76 1A97
1A75 1C78 1A91 1C94
2T04 1A12 1C81 1A89 1C93
1C40 1A85 1C88
1A72 1D20 1P26 NPO
NPO 1C91 2A65

Just to repeat, this list is not official and so it may contain errors (especially West Country trains) but hopefully it may help you as a rough guide.

I have not attempted to do the same for Saturdays as there just seems to be too much week to week variation due to many reasons.

 

[irish_rail]

Both 1a81 and 1a82 (Penzance to London trains) formed of 5 vice 10 cars this morning....not good....

 

[Melancholia]

Don't know if it's appropriate for this topic, if not, please move to the correct one. GWR are running a test run up to Banbury tomorrow night. Should be a 5 car 802.

5Z35 0105 London Paddington to Banbury
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V05019/2019/07/03/advanced

5Z36 0419 Banbury to London Paddington
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V05020/2019/07/03/advanced

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Don't know if it's appropriate for this topic, if not, please move to the correct one. GWR are running a test run up to Banbury tonight. Should be a 5 car 802.

5Z35 0105 London Paddington to Banbury
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V05019/2019/07/03/advanced

5Z36 0419 Banbury to London Paddington
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V05020/2019/07/03/advanced

Oh yes, that'd be wonderful if IET's ran regularly to Banbury. Hopefully Tackley and Heyford can take a 5-car IET. I presume Kings Sutton as Chiltern Railways make a few calls there still, don't they?

What is the reason for the test run?

 

[800002]

It strikes me as odd that everything IEP wise still appears to run under an HST timing load.
Any ideas as to if an 800 / 802 timing loads exist? Or when the schedules may be updated?

 

[JN114]

Oh yes, that'd be wonderful if IET's ran regularly to Banbury. Hopefully Tackley and Heyford can take a 5-car IET. I presume Kings Sutton as Chiltern Railways make a few calls there still, don't they?

What is the reason for the test run?

Compatibility testing - platform stepping distances, stop marker positioning etc.

It strikes me as odd that everything IEP wise still appears to run under an HST timing load.
Any ideas as to if an 800 / 802 timing loads exist? Or when the schedules may be updated?

IET timing loads exist, but if you use them you have to use IET sectional running times. They’re so vastly different it’s effectively a wholesale timetable rewrite just to introduce IET timing loads.

Schedules will go over to new timing loads and SRTs with the timetable recast in December.

 

[800002]

IET timing loads exist, but if you use them you have to use IET sectional running times. They’re so vastly different it’s effectively a wholesale timetable rewrite just to introduce IET timing loads.

Schedules will go over to new timing loads and SRTs with the timetable recast in December.

Thanks for that.

Is it possible to say, at this point in time, how much time is shed for a 80x timing load on a Paddington - Cardiff / Swansea compared to the HST?
(I assume a TOC or NR planner could enlighten us).

 

[Melancholia]

Correction, the test run will be TOMORROW night. My original post has been edited.

This is what working nights does, losing track of what day it is

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

IET timing loads exist, but if you use them you have to use IET sectional running times. They’re so vastly different it’s effectively a wholesale timetable rewrite just to introduce IET timing loads.
Schedules will go over to new timing loads and SRTs with the timetable recast in December.

Or they can be pathed (very smartly, might I say!) as an Electric locomotive, with a load of 802 tonnes, for example!

 

[JN114]

Or they can be pathed (very smartly, might I say!) as an Electric locomotive, with a load of 802 tonnes, for example!

I’m not sure which part of the problem that solves?

If you change the timing load, you have to change the SRTs. New SRTs means new timetable. There’s no point rewriting the whole timetable in July, only for there to be another clean slate rewrite in December.

The train needs to be able to achieve the SRTs associated with the timing load. An IET can run quite happily on HST timings. The accelerated timings are required for the new timetable in December.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

I’m not sure which part of the problem that solves?

If you change the timing load, you have to change the SRTs. New SRTs means new timetable. There’s no point rewriting the whole timetable in July, only for there to be another clean slate rewrite in December.

The train needs to be able to achieve the SRTs associated with the timing load. An IET can run quite happily on HST timings. The accelerated timings are required for the new timetable in December.

As far as I know, it’s only been used for the IET tests - 1Z77 ran as a “Diesel locomotive with a trailing load of 802 tonnes.”

 

[jimm]

Oh yes, that'd be wonderful if IET's ran regularly to Banbury. Hopefully Tackley and Heyford can take a 5-car IET. I presume Kings Sutton as Chiltern Railways make a few calls there still, don't they?

What is the reason for the test run?

Depends what you mean by regularly. There should be a limited number of IET services operating to and from Banbury on a regular basis from December, as extensions of some peak services between London and Oxford.

IETs have selective door opening, so the platforms at the intermediate stations along the Cherwell Valley pose no problems whatever and are all longer than Combe and Finstock on the Cotswold Line, where an IET, either five-car or nine-car, calls every weekday afternoon.

It was always intended to clear the Oxford-Banbury route for IET operation. It was shown on a map of routes that would be cleared that was issued by the Department for Transport back in 2011.

 

[Melancholia]

IETs have selective door opening, so the platforms at the intermediate stations along the Cherwell Valley pose no problems whatever and are all longer than Combe and Finstock on the Cotswold Line, where an IET, either five-car or nine-car, calls every weekday afternoon.

Platforms between Oxford and Banbury are only long enough to fit 2 and a half coaches of an IET, meaning only one bicycle storage area will be platformed. I don't know how GWR will safely manage the loading of bicycles, since if anyone's familiar with the peak time services on the line, lots of bikes come from those stations, certainly more than two.

The stepping distances on the stations are also close to being as bad as Shipton on the North Cotswold line.

IETs are not suitable for that line at all.

 

[jimm]

Platforms between Oxford and Banbury are only long enough to fit 2 and a half coaches of an IET, meaning only one bicycle storage area will be platformed. I don't know how GWR will safely manage the loading of bicycles, since if anyone's familiar with the peak time services on the line, lots of bikes come from those stations, certainly more than two.

The stepping distances on the stations are also close to being as bad as Shipton on the North Cotswold line.

IETs are not suitable for that line at all.

Two-and-a-half IET coaches is the same as fit at Shipton and Ascott-under-Wychwood and rather more than you get on at either Combe or Finstock, which are so short the cab ends of two-car Turbos are next to the ramps. No one is going to spend a penny piece on altering the platform heights in the Cherwell Valley or at Shipton any time soon.

I doubt the cycle/commuting types are likely to be affected, with any southbound IETs from Banbury fairly early in the morning (and which may not even make any intermediate calls) and well after most of those travelling with bikes will have gone home from Oxford in the other direction on 165s, which may now have nice bike racks but for so many years worked the Cherwell Valley stoppers with no bike spaces at all.

 

[Melancholia]

Two-and-a-half IET coaches is the same as fit at Shipton and Ascott-under-Wychwood and rather more than you get on at either Combe or Finstock, which are so short the cab ends of two-car Turbos are next to the ramps. No one is going to spend a penny piece on altering the platform heights in the Cherwell Valley or at Shipton any time soon.

I was only mentioning the length of coaches platformed as some context to the next sentence regarding cycle storage areas. SDO working is fine, nothing wrong with that.

I doubt the cycle/commuting types are likely to be affected, with any southbound IETs from Banbury fairly early in the morning (and which may not even make any intermediate calls) and well after most of those travelling with bikes will have gone home from Oxford in the other direction on 165s, which may now have nice bike racks but for so many years worked the Cherwell Valley stoppers with no bike spaces at all.

I am familiar with the passenger flow off the services that come in the morning from Banbury, and go back up there in the evening, and I can tell you that it will not be enough.

It's worked well over the years as it has become acceptable to store bikes in the vestibules on Turbos, however since even before IETs became a thing, it has been enforced that bikes need to be stored in specific areas. Are we now supposed to ignore that, due to certainly more than the allowed 2 bikes on platformed areas will be boarding? The vestibule areas will be full of cycles come December TT change on the Cherwell Valley line.

I am aware this is off-topic, so I apologise.

 

[jimm]

I

I am familiar with the passenger flow off the services that come in the morning from Banbury, and go back up there in the evening, and I can tell you that it will not be enough.

It's worked well over the years as it has become acceptable to store bikes in the vestibules on Turbos, however since even before IETs became a thing, it has been enforced that bikes need to be stored in specific areas. Are we now supposed to ignore that, due to certainly more than the allowed 2 bikes on platformed areas will be boarding? The vestibule areas will be full of cycles come December TT change on the Cherwell Valley line.

I am aware this is off-topic, so I apologise.

How many more times do I need to say this?

Any use of IETs between Oxford and Banbury from December will be extremely limited. Almost all GWR Cherwell Vally services will still be worked by Turbos.

The IET services are not going to be running at times when the bulk of the people commuting into Oxford from the north for work and back out again around the general 9 to 5 window are travelling, so they are not likely to see an IET unless it is at Oxford station working a service on another route.

I am have often observed a longstanding northbound GWR service leave Oxford at around the time an evening IET service is expected to be running and next to no one ever puts a bike on the Turbo set.

I am afraid you are just making a mountain out of a molehill about any Banbury IET services and bikes.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Now that all the GWR IETs have been delivered why are some services for which they were ordered still operated by Turbos? For example 1D30 14:50 Paddington-Oxford express is diagrammed for a 3-car "suburban" 165/1 or 166, which is often barely adequate for the crowds. We were led to believe that all such services would be IETs by now. Is there a shortage of IETs, perhaps availability issues or delays in commissioning? Just curious!

 

[JN114]

Now that all the GWR IETs have been delivered why are some services for which they were ordered still operated by Turbos? For example 1D30 14:50 Paddington-Oxford express is diagrammed for a 3-car "suburban" 165/1 or 166, which is often barely adequate for the crowds. We were led to believe that all such services would be IETs by now. Is there a shortage of IETs, perhaps availability issues or delays in commissioning? Just curious!

The 1450 is an in-service positioning move to cycle Turbos between Reading and Oxford; otherwise they’d get stuck in the Oxford area. The opposite-direction move is the 0931 Oxford to Padd; which goes empty back to Reading depot.