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Bendy bus withdrawal from London

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ralphchadkirk

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Just to add something else to the mix; figures released to the London Assembly, which measured bendy buses against normal buses on the same type of route - inner city actually found that bendy's have 2.62 collisions with cyclists per million miles, and normal buses 2.78.

And also - between 1994 and 2007 there were 0.05 deaths per million KM compared to 0.08 by Routemasters.

http://www.channel4.com/news/articl...tcheck+are+bendy+buses+more+dangerous/1829747
 
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yorkie

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Just to add something else to the mix; figures released to the London Assembly, which measured bendy buses against normal buses on the same type of route - inner city actually found that bendy's have 2.62 collisions with cyclists per million miles, and normal buses 2.78.

And also - between 1994 and 2007 there were 0.05 deaths per million KM compared to 0.08 by Routemasters.

http://www.channel4.com/news/articl...tcheck+are+bendy+buses+more+dangerous/1829747
A strange article, where they admit that the bendy buses are involved in many more collissions than normal buses, but where they then carefully select routes to try to get different figures. Well, when you manipulate stats like that, you can achieve any result you want.

I find it amusing that you fail to quote the proper statistics

Boris's claim is based on figures given to the London Assembly for accidents on bendy (articulated) and other (non-articulated) buses last year.

According to these, there were 5.6 pedestrian injuries per million miles operated on bendy buses in 2006/07, but just 2.6 pedestrian injuries per million miles operated on other bus types.

In the same year, there were 2.62 collisions with cyclists per million bendy bus miles, and only 0.97 cyclist collisions per million miles operated on other bus routes.

The actual number of incidents is small in all cases, but there's still a pretty big difference between the two types of bus: pedestrians and cyclists are both more than twice as likely to get into trouble on a bendy bus route.

Play with statistics to get the result you want if you like, but I prefer to go by what I've seen with my own eyes and what I have experienced, and I know that if a bendy bus is overtaking me I am in a much greater danger than if a normal bus is overtaking me. Nothing you say will change that.
 

ralphchadkirk

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The routes were being compared so as they were almost the same in terms of traffic density and other factors.

As to the statistics you quoted - well, when you play enough with them you can get the result you want.
 

jon0844

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The problem with the bendy buses is more down to negotiating the roads, around illegally parked vehicles and other traffic - as well as the problem with having to walk back so far to board a bus in rush hour.

In an ideal world they'd be fine. If the roads were all widened and there were more individual stops for each bus, all would be perfect. That isn't going to happen though is it.
 

yorkie

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The routes were being compared so as they were almost the same in terms of traffic density and other factors.
That's highly subjective. Who chose the routes? What was their vested interest? have pro-pedestrian/cycle groups had a say in which of these routes were chosen?

As to the statistics you quoted - well, when you play enough with them you can get the result you want.
I quoted? Erm, yes, but they are contained in the article you quoted, and I was quoting the raw figures before they were played around with. Glad you admit that when the figures are played around with you get the result you want. ;)

In any case, these statistics are meaningless to someone who has seen the absolute chaos and dangerous situations that they cause, as I have.

If anyone really wants to see some of the problems or doubts that they exist, come to York and I'm sure 142094 and I can take to to some places where you can witness it for yourself. We are not making it up, I can assure you of that.
 

142094

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I'm not saying bendy buses are bad, but when I was in York on the FTR (which wasn't very futuristic in my mind) they had a conductor - so it's a totally different story.

When they came out it was supposed to be a revolution in that the driver had no contact with the passengers, so freeing up time to quickly move on to the next stop, and passengers could buy a ticket from the (1) machine on board. However the eejit which thought of this didn't take into account the amount of students that use the route from the Uni to the city centre and railway station, and the machines did not work properly. Also, I don't know if there were many problems with fare evasion as there was no conductor at the start of operation (but I wasn't in York at the time so I don't know for sure).

They now have conductors on board, and most are good at what they do. However some do not have a clue and some don't speak very good English. I would dread to get on one with a PlusBus ticket.

I do know that the council spent a lot of money on road improvements, which seems a big waste when it could have been spent on other things, such as improving frequencies, especially after 6-7pm. There have been plenty of times when I have went to the stop at teh station to get back to campus and the bus is due in 20 minutes, but fails to turn up and I have to get the next one. When traffic is heavy (which seems like most of the day in York), especially around race days etc FTRs get held up in Acomb and along the Knavesmire. Blossom Street and Micklegate junction is also a bad place. I also find it very stupid that it continues all the way along to Acomb, which is quite a distance, when it really should end either at the station or just after. However that is a different matter.

As Yorkie says, feel free to come and experience what we have to everyday.
 

Juniper Driver

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Im a cyclist commuter in London and haven't really found bendy buses any more of a problem than other road users.
 

ralphchadkirk

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If anyone really wants to see some of the problems or doubts that they exist, come to York and I'm sure 142094 and I can take to to some places where you can witness it for yourself. We are not making it up, I can assure you of that.

I would be happy to. I've never experienced problems with them, but that doesn't mean to say they don't happen.
 

jon0844

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PlusBus worked fine on the FTR in York (and indeed the other buses). It does help now it's a separate ticket, although it does mean another ticket to carry.
 

yorkie

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I do know that the council spent a lot of money on road improvements, which seems a big waste when it could have been spent on other things, such as improving frequencies, especially after 6-7pm.
The impression I got is that they got grants to spend on improving the road surface, many of the improvements are good for all road users, while some are good for any bus (e.g. the improved bus stops). I think they got a grant for trialing the service. I bet not a great deal of money was spent on the improvements that were specific to the ftr, ie. making turnings wider.

So I don't really have a problem with the money spent, but there is a big question mark over road damage. I have noticed that the roads that were deemed to be in good enough condition to not need improving have deteriorated in some areas, in places that are consistent with it being caused by the ftr. It is hard to describe but I could take photos if necessary (and if I can be bothered!) So I think there is a big question mark over sustainability.

There are also issues with the fuel they use; I've heard it's quite a lot, but I have not seen any figures. I can believe they are inefficient based on the fact you can really hear the buses in places where you couldn't before, and in other places much louder than before (or, indeed, at present after approx 7pm!)
There have been plenty of times when I have went to the stop at teh station to get back to campus and the bus is due in 20 minutes, but fails to turn up and I have to get the next one. When traffic is heavy (which seems like most of the day in York), especially around race days etc FTRs get held up in Acomb and along the Knavesmire. Blossom Street and Micklegate junction is also a bad place.
Yes, very little money was spent on improvements that would actually make the ftr to beat the traffic. Probably because these would be really expensive. Yes, buses are cheaper than trams, but a part of that is the signalling and dedicated parts of the route that make trams much faster. Without that for buses (no, I don't mean guided busways - I mean bus lanes and bus priority traffic lights) then there isn't the big advantages that trams have.
I also find it very stupid that it continues all the way along to Acomb, which is quite a distance, when it really should end either at the station or just after. However that is a different matter.
It does get busy at the Acomb end, but not in the evenings.
As Yorkie says, feel free to come and experience what we have to everyday.
I cycle along the bus route quite often, and I beat the bus every time, even uphill.:D The only place they can't be beaten is along Tadcaster Road, however if you were racing the bus for most practical journeys you would not go along Tadcaster Road and take a shorter route (e.g. University to Acomb via Millenium Bridge, or Acomb to York station via Holgate Bridge), and would beat the zig-zagging ftr.
I would be happy to. I've never experienced problems with them, but that doesn't mean to say they don't happen.

Send us a PM when you're in York then :)
 

90019

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Yes that's a stupid idea, but you also get buses overtaking before stops. Surely you have witnessed that, if you do cycle a lot and there are a lot of bendies where you are? If you have not then I can only speculate that it may be down to different driving styles.

No, however, I do cycle in the centre of Edinburgh (not much atm, as I don't cycle much at this time of year), including Princes street, which is full of buses when it's busy, and can be very dangerous. But if you're careful and very aware of everything going on around you it can be a lot of fun :D

It's just a matter of always knowing what's going on around you, and where everything is, and what they're doing, as well as trying to make sure that they know where you are.

We now have the tramlines (and the shoddy workmanship already showing through) to deal with too <(
 

CarterUSM

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Yes yorkie, you seem to know what is safe, not accepting statistics, ( lies, damned lies, and statistics) only your own special eye witness confessions and how it is! Why don't you run for minister for transport, seriously, I like how you argue your point!:) You are wasted in your current position. Bendy buses? No way! The public should be spared their unsatisfactory dimensions on the roads, never mind how they overtake dangerously and cause more accidents than the more established models on the streets. :) sarcasm? Very much so! :)
 

yorkie

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Yes yorkie, you seem to know what is safe, not accepting statistics, ( lies, damned lies, and statistics)
You mean I didn't accept the doctored statistics? If you look at the article quoted, the actual statistics are that bendy buses are, as Boris said, much more likely to be in collisions. Are you asking me to accept the statistics that have been messed about with in ways that are not fully explained in order to satisfy a political point? Interesting...
only your own special eye witness confessions and how it is!
It doesn't take someone with a great deal of brainpower to realise that if a bendy bus overtakes you, when doing less than 10mph more than you, that it's going to take quite some time for it to actually overtake, and that by the time it's overtaken the driver may have forgotten about you (or may simply not care or expect you to take evasive action). Where you live this may not happen, but it's certainly happened to me, and it's extremely scary when it does. I think that personal experiences do matter more than doctored statistics that are massaged to create the impression you want. I never said I am against statistics completely, and the overall statistics support my view totally.
Why don't you run for minister for transport, seriously, I like how you argue your point!:)
Why do you constantly say that line? It's getting boring and is the sort of childish thing that people say when they can't win an argument by proper discussion.
You are wasted in your current position. Bendy buses? No way! The public should be spared their unsatisfactory dimensions on the roads, never mind how they overtake dangerously and cause more accidents than the more established models on the streets. :) sarcasm? Very much so! :)
They do cause more 'accidents' than 'more established' models according to the statistics. The irony is that you have a go at me for not accepting doctored statistics, and yet you ignore the true statistics yourself. Hmm.
 

CarterUSM

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Hmmmn indeed! Though it is simply that I do not accept that one study, doctored or not, has any more indomitible evidence over the original, when the data is clearly marginal in its findings at best. You spin those said figures to your advantage significantly, and without reasonable doubt, I may take it seriously instead of amusing myself with your hyperbole. I do, in all honesty however, apologise with regards to the minister of transport jibe. You could make shadow minister at best. :) Childish? Not at all. Juvenile quips? Perhaps. The difference between them? You tell me. :)
 
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starrymarkb

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Interesting news in RouteOne that there is a political row over the Borismaster costs - at present they will cost £2mill each....
 

317 forever

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Bendibuses were withdrawn from routes 38, 507 and 521 last year. Routes 18 and 149 are due to regain double-deckers in the Autumn. Route 25 is due to return to First with new double-deckers next June, but I reckon this could happen sooner, depending on what can be negotiated with the eventual new owners of East London Bus Group. Routes 12 and 73 are currently out to tender. That just leaves routes 29, 207, 436 and 453 to be concluded.
 

jon0844

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There will be a lot of very upset people when the Seventy-Free is replaced with double decker buses and people have to pay to travel.
 

causton

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There will be a lot of very upset people when the Seventy-Free is replaced with double decker buses and people have to pay to travel.

Indeed. Is there any conclusive results on how many people actually pay? I've only had the fare collectors come on a bus once and nobody was found not to have one - was in the middle of the day on a weekday though! I have also been with some people who once took us from their flat to the nearest tube station when I left theirs on a bendy bus without paying 'cause we can, and it's free' and I do hear about all these different stories claiming people don't ever pay. But people with season tickets on an Oyster card don't (IIRC last time I checked) and people could have paper travelcards (or even one of those ones from a machine :lol: - has ANYONE used those actually?) so even if you see people get on without touching in, they could still have a valid ticket. Hmmm...
 

jon0844

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I suspect that it definitely depends were the inspectors get on (what route and where abouts along it), and the time of day (like late evenings or weekends). But, you're right in that people may have season tickets/bus passes or paper tickets (less likely the latter).

There are so few inspectors though, which makes me think that I'd chance it if I was that way inclined.

In fact, I've seen inspectors TWICE but never when I've been on one. A team boarded one (73 on TCR towards Seven Sisters) as I got off, and the others nearly got on my bus but then opted to wait for one behind. On that basis, it's pretty fair to say that I could easily get away without paying - I reckon it would be at least a year before I'd get caught, and then it's £25 if paid promptly.

I'd like to know many people they catch, as well as knowing why people actually bother to pay given the tiny chance of being caught! If they're so honest on the buses, why is it so different on the railway?
 

Daniel

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There will be a lot of very upset people when the Seventy-Free is replaced with double decker buses and people have to pay to travel.

Now surely you're not suggesting that bendy buses aid fare evasion, or even that our wonderful passengers aren't happy to hand over money for their journey before it commences...? ;)
 

jon0844

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I was quite surprised when I read on a forum about how many people simply refuse to pay on normal buses, knowing that the driver is told not to do anything. They can't leave their cab, they can't refuse to move (as said passenger(s) may kick off and cause trouble) and it's rather pointless to call the police.

But, I still think you'd have less people doing that on a double decker than a bendy.

Or, you simply make bus travel free for nearly everyone so there's no fare evasion at all. I just hope that I'm not the last person to be required to pay!!
 

Deerfold

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daikilo

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TfL figures suggest fare evasion on bendy buses is about double that on normal buses (making it about 3% of passengers if I recall correctly). I'll try and dig up a link or two.

(http://www.boriswatch.co.uk/2009/03...stion-latest-evasive-answer-from-bendy-boris/ has a bit)

Only 3%? That probably means that analysis of CCTV capture could identify many of these and likely they won't be once only travellers, thus a recognition programming could maybe identify when such potential evaders board thus creating opportunities for focussed inspection ... or would that infringe civil liberties?
 

Deerfold

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Only 3%? That probably means that analysis of CCTV capture could identify many of these and likely they won't be once only travellers, thus a recognition programming could maybe identify when such potential evaders board thus creating opportunities for focussed inspection ... or would that infringe civil liberties?

I suspect it's so low as some who might otherwise try to evade have more problems evading with the underground making it worth them getting a ravelcard anyway...
 
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