When will something be done about the Whitby branch ?

[yorksrob]

That would add another 3 minutes at least to the through journey time though, and increase the load on Nunthorpe signaller. What seems to be needed is a cost-effective alternative to the fixed token blocks we have, but noone seems to be working on one.

I don't know.

Three minutes dealing with the token, versus the three minutes trying to fit various cyclists in the train (some were left behind last Saturday)which is what happened at Grosmont last Saturday.

I think we're better off taking longer but being more robust.

 

[Marton]

I have resisted a substantive comment on this so far although this is my local line.

Presently at Battersby on the way back from Whitby. Both trains barely loaded. Probably 20% on the 1756 Middlesbrough to Whitby and less on the late Friday only return.

This is in keeping with my experience. The only times I see full loading is occasionally in the summer holidays and Bank Holidays. Most of my journeys are in the Section to Nunthorpe, but I can’t see it getting fuller later on the journey.

Reality check needed The service isn’t ideal but the cost of serious improvements is not justifiable against other public spending needs.

The early morning service from Whitby is stating in December. All that can realistically be expected now is a later device that the current return.

Finally the 158s coming on stream are a great improvement although I haven’t experienced the ride on one beyond Nunthorpe yet.

 

[Marton]

With the greatest of respect to the good men and women of Nunthorpe box I'm not convinced it's the busiest patch on the network such that one extra token change would be unmanageable

Does Nunthorpe have to do anything for the TPE reversals at Guisborough Jct or is that just Middlesbrough?

 

[ainsworth74]

Does Nunthorpe have to do anything for the TPE reversals at Guisborough Jct or is that just Middlesbrough?

I think that's all in the Middlesbrough box patch. Plus, assuming the December 2019 timetable change goes ahead, they'll all (or nearly all) be going to Redcar anyway wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Killingworth]

Was the Esk Valley side not 2 platforms?

In 1893 there were certainly 2 tracks through Grosmont, see old maps; https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/482500/505500/12/100392

By the 1973 map there was only one.

 

[yorksrob]

I have resisted a substantive comment on this so far although this is my local line.

Presently at Battersby on the way back from Whitby. Both trains barely loaded. Probably 20% on the 1756 Middlesbrough to Whitby and less on the late Friday only return.

This is in keeping with my experience. The only times I see full loading is occasionally in the summer holidays and Bank Holidays. Most of my journeys are in the Section to Nunthorpe, but I can’t see it getting fuller later on the journey.

Reality check needed The service isn’t ideal but the cost of serious improvements is not justifiable against other public spending needs.

The early morning service from Whitby is stating in December. All that can realistically be expected now is a later device that the current return.

Finally the 158s coming on stream are a great improvement although I haven’t experienced the ride on one beyond Nunthorpe yet.

Trains barely loaded beyond Battersby - I wish. Last Saturday wasn't a bank holiday and the 16:00 was full and standing from Whitby. Fortunately some got off a few stations down.

Which brings me to my next observation. There seem to be a fair few people travelling between intermediate stations and Whitby. These are often the ones who get left behind.

I've never yet seen a Whitby train 20% full on a Saturday, even in winter, although admittedly I don't tend to do the first train out/last train back.

If there was any extra capacity in a 2 carriage 158, it was used up last Saturday.

Perhaps what is most urgently needed for the route is a Saturday enhancement. I've only used the line once on a weekday, and then the train was full of school children.

 

[AndyHudds]

Trains barely loaded beyond Battersby - I wish. Last Saturday wasn't a bank holiday and the 16:00 was full and standing from Whitby. Fortunately some got off a few stations down.

Which brings me to my next observation. There seem to be a fair few people travelling between intermediate stations and Whitby. These are often the ones who get left behind.

I've never yet seen a Whitby train 20% full on a Saturday, even in winter, although admittedly I don't tend to do the first train out/last train back.

If there was any extra capacity in a 2 carriage 158, it was used up last Saturday.

Perhaps what is most urgently needed for the route is a Saturday enhancement. I've only used the line once on a weekday, and then the train was full of school children.

You make it sound like school children aren't fare paying passengers or it somehow denegrates the service because it's school children using it or am I misinterpretating your comment? One thing that it is clearly obvious that Whitby and the surrounding area needs that line for tourism and its local economy.

 

[yorksrob]

You make it sound like school children aren't fare paying passengers or it somehow denegrates the service because it's school children using it or am I misinterpretating your comment? One thing that it is clearly obvious that Whitby and the surrounding area needs that line for tourism and its local economy.

Nope. I was just pointing out that even when I travelled on a weekday, the train was still busy with the school children. A paying passenger is a paying passenger, as far as I'm concerned.

From a purely selfish point of view, a Saturday departure from Whitby at around 17:00/18:00 would be handy.

 

[Ploughman]

Was the Esk Valley side not 2 platforms?

No, Bi Di platform with a freight loop on the inner side of the curve.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I have resisted a substantive comment on this so far although this is my local line.

Presently at Battersby on the way back from Whitby. Both trains barely loaded. Probably 20% on the 1756 Middlesbrough to Whitby and less on the late Friday only return.... .

A bit unfair to choose the late night FO return, isn't it? I'd always assumed that is essentially an ECS working that carries the odd passenger. The real commercial purpose of the operation is the Middlesbrough - Whitby outward working for those in the region wishing to access Whitby (and maybe a few for the intermediate stations) for the weekend.

 

[yorksrob]

If anyone us travelling on the 10:xx to Whitby today, I'd be interested to hear what the situation is vis a vis overcrowding/strengthening.

 

[Clip]

If anyone us travelling on the 10:xx to Whitby today, I'd be interested to hear what the situation is vis a vis overcrowding/strengthening.

Lets be honest it will be rammed even if it had 30 coaches - the weather will dictate that without needing any eyes on the ground

 

[70014IronDuke]

If anyone us travelling on the 10:xx to Whitby today, I'd be interested to hear what the situation is vis a vis overcrowding/strengthening.

It lost 12 minutes en route, which suggests dwell times might have been exceeded, which suggests well loaded.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y60350/2019/06/29/advanced

 

[yorksrob]

It lost 12 minutes en route, which suggests dwell times might have been exceeded, which suggests well loaded.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y60350/2019/06/29/advanced

Thanks for the info. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if it was, given my experiences.

Given the forecast weather, one would have thought strengthening might have been considered for today ! (Spare 142 permitting, obviously).

 

[Leisurefirst]

If anyone us travelling on the 10:xx to Whitby today, I'd be interested to hear what the situation is vis a vis overcrowding/strengthening.

I was waiting for it at Whitby.
Was two carriages and absolutely rammed.
The guard did an awesome job, ordering everybody waiting to stand well back and the passengers alighting seemed never-ending.
She then apologised for the inability to clear the train of rubbish due to the delay and set about clearing all the bottles and cans en route as well as then checking and issuing tickets.
At MBO though it turned into another service pretty quickly and as we had let everyone else get off first due to me dealing with two people's luggage we barely managed to get off as people got on.
Waiting for a York service, saw a full and standing Saltburn Pacer opposite and heard the next Whitby service was four carriages so that should help the return journey!

 

[yorksrob]

I was waiting for it at Whitby.
Was two carriages and absolutely rammed.
The guard did an awesome job, ordering everybody waiting to stand well back and the passengers alighting seemed never-ending.
She then apologised for the inability to clear the train of rubbish due to the delay and set about clearing all the bottles and cans en route as well as then checking and issuing tickets.
At MBO though it turned into another service pretty quickly and as we had let everyone else get off first due to me dealing with two people's luggage we barely managed to get off as people got on.
Waiting for a York service, saw a full and standing Saltburn Pacer opposite and heard the next Whitby service was four carriages so that should help the return journey!

Thanks for the report !

It's good that they strengthened it later anyway. That 10:xx should be anticipated though.

 

[ainsworth74]

That 10:xx should be anticipated though.

I'm sure it was. Doesn't mean that there was anything spare to strengthen it with!

 

[yorksrob]

Lets be honest it will be rammed even if it had 30 coaches - the weather will dictate that without needing any eyes on the ground

That's as maybe, but a rammed 4 carriage is a lot less rammed than 2 carriages for the same amount of people !

I'm sure it was. Doesn't mean that there was anything spare to strengthen it with!

Of course it doesn't. However, I wonder if the 'spare' 142 was there at Middlesborough today ?

Was whatever strengthened the later service, available at the time ?

If it's a case of the stock being there, but the guard has to physically try and cram everyone on the 10:00, and only after the crew have reported that situation will the following service be strengthened - that's not good planning.

One didn't need to consult Mystic Meg to work out that today was likely to be busy.

 

[Leisurefirst]

Thanks for the report !

It's good that they strengthened it later anyway. That 10:xx should be anticipated though.

My pleasure!

 

[adrock1976]

Having had a quick eyeball at the present timetable, it seems that based on a desired frequency of every 2 hours Middlesbrough - Whitby via Battersby, there would have to be a passing loop at Castleton Moor as mentioned in previous posts as it is roughly 45 minutes to reach that point of the route.

This is based on a 90 minute journey time each way, with a 15 minute layover at each end.

For timetable robustness, ideally there should be a dynamic loop between Castleton Moor and Commondale - I am unsure if that section of the route was ever double track or how easy it would be to build one at a reasonable cost if there never was double track in the first place.

 

[ainsworth74]

I am unsure if that section of the route was ever double track or how easy it would be to build one at a reasonable cost if there never was double track in the first place.

I'm open to correction but I have a feeling that the route was pretty much all single track between Nunthorpe Junction (where the Guisborough line used to split off from) through to Grosmont.

 

[cactustwirly]

Trains barely loaded beyond Battersby - I wish. Last Saturday wasn't a bank holiday and the 16:00 was full and standing from Whitby. Fortunately some got off a few stations down.

Which brings me to my next observation. There seem to be a fair few people travelling between intermediate stations and Whitby. These are often the ones who get left behind.

I've never yet seen a Whitby train 20% full on a Saturday, even in winter, although admittedly I don't tend to do the first train out/last train back.

If there was any extra capacity in a 2 carriage 158, it was used up last Saturday.

Perhaps what is most urgently needed for the route is a Saturday enhancement. I've only used the line once on a weekday, and then the train was full of school children.

Full trains on bank holidays is nothing new.
The summer bank holiday trains from Paddington to Penzance can be pretty cosy, especially the 1003 off Paddington.

However where are the trains going to come from to strengthen the Whitby services?

 

[yorksrob]

Full trains on bank holidays is nothing new.
The summer bank holiday trains from Paddington to Penzance can be pretty cosy, especially the 1003 off Paddington.

However where are the trains going to come from to strengthen the Whitby services?

Firstly, this isn't a bank holiday (neither was two weeks ago when I started this thread).

Secondly, there is some acknowledgement that a unit waits at Middlesborough most of the day, and according to @Leisurefirst there was a unit available, at least for the later service.

 

[cactustwirly]

Firstly, this isn't a bank holiday (neither was two weeks ago when I started this thread).

Secondly, there is some acknowledgement that a unit waits at Middlesborough most of the day, and according to @Leisurefirst there was a unit available, at least for the later service.

Well if it was available, do you not think that Northern wouldn't put it on the Whitby service?

 

[yorksrob]

Well if it was available, do you not think that Northern wouldn't put it on the Whitby service?

Well, one would hope so. But there are a lot of things that would be beneficial for passengers that aren't done.

I'd really like to know what the block is , particularly as the stock does appear to be available, in the form of the spare unit at Middlesborough.

 

[ainsworth74]

in the form of the spare unit at Middlesborough.

Which is used as per the Middlesbrough based conductor who brought this very thread up with me!

 

[yorksrob]

Which is used as per the Middlesbrough based conductor who brought this very thread up with me!

How is it used, as per the Middlesborough based conductor ?

If it is down to crew to decide whether the set is strengthened, people higher up aren't planning the service properly.

 

[darloscott]

That's as maybe, but a rammed 4 carriage is a lot less rammed than 2 carriages for the same amount of people !



Of course it doesn't. However, I wonder if the 'spare' 142 was there at Middlesborough today ?

Was whatever strengthened the later service, available at the time ?

If it's a case of the stock being there, but the guard has to physically try and cram everyone on the 10:00, and only after the crew have reported that situation will the following service be strengthened - that's not good planning.

One didn't need to consult Mystic Meg to work out that today was likely to be busy.

The later service would presumably be the 14xx which comes from Hexham and replaces the Whitby unit which goes off on a run to Hexham, swapping back on the return legs. Therefore they presumably anticipated the return crowds (it would form the 1600 to Mbro)

 

[yorksrob]

The later service would presumably be the 14xx which comes from Hexham and replaces the Whitby unit which goes off on a run to Hexham, swapping back on the return legs. Therefore they presumably anticipated the return crowds (it would form the 1600 to Mbro)

I do think it would be better not to swap the units, and just run a strengthened Whitby diagram all day Saturday.

Is there any reason why these units swap in this way, or is it just to provide a through journey ?

 

[AndyHudds]

There is a piece in this month's Modern Railways by a local resident and rail expert bemoaning Northern and their lack of action on the line.