Historic Question - Timetable for Didcot-Newbury (DN&SR)

[nickswift99]

There's a lot of debate currently in West Berkshire about public transport.

Prior to its run-down and closure in the early 60s, I'd be interested to find out what the public timetable was for services along this line in order to compare it with the now very limited bus service that only runs from The Ilsleys to Newbury.

Does anyone have an old timetable they could share?

MODS - Just noticed that there's probably a better forum for this question - can you move it to the Railway History one?

 

[70014IronDuke]

I can't answer your question, I'm afraid. I only knew the line a little bit when it was goods only. But I can say it was infamously difficult to work, with steep gradients and sections of single track - this despite a lot of effort put into the line early in WW2 because of fears enemy action on the WR main line could sever the principal - and vital - Southampton - Midlands rail link.

And of course - if you know anything about passenger train services up to the 1960s - you would know that the service would probably be horrendously sparse by modern day standards. As a pure guess, I'd say there would probably be at best five full through trains each way per day, but probably fewer - maybe supplemented by an extra train on the Newbury - Winchester section. As for average speeds, I think you'd struggle to get a 30 mph average between Didcot and Southampton, more likely closer to 25 mph.

Apologies if you have the background to know all this. Hopefully someone will be along soon with accurate information on the route.

 

[nickswift99]

I can't answer your question, I'm afraid. I only knew the line a little bit when it was goods only. But I can say it was infamously difficult to work, with steep gradients and sections of single track - this despite a lot of effort put into the line early in WW2 because of fears enemy action on the WR main line could sever the principal - and vital - Southampton - Midlands rail link.

And of course - if you know anything about passenger train services up to the 1960s - you would know that the service would probably be horrendously sparse by modern day standards. As a pure guess, I'd say there would probably be at best five full through trains each way per day, but probably fewer - maybe supplemented by an extra train on the Newbury - Winchester section. As for average speeds, I think you'd struggle to get a 30 mph average between Didcot and Southampton, more likely closer to 25 mph.

Apologies if you have the background to know all this. Hopefully someone will be along soon with accurate information on the route.

Thanks. The current public transport provision for the southern part of this section (Compton to Newbury) is 5 services a day. I'm trying to understand whether even though the local population has more than doubled in this period, public transport provision has actually got worse or just remains poor.

 

[SWTCommuter]

The timetable for 1950 is on the Timetable World website:
https://timetableworld.com/book_viewer.php?id=6&section_id=1765
Scroll down to table 79.

It appears there were six trains a day on weekdays and eight on Saturdays, so slightly better than the current bus provision. Compton to Newbury took just under half an hour and Didcot to Southampton over three hours.

 

[WesternLancer]

The timetable for 1950 is on the Timetable World website:
https://timetableworld.com/book_viewer.php?id=6&section_id=1765
Scroll down to table 79.

It appears there were six trains a day on weekdays and eight on Saturdays, so slightly better than the current bus provision. Compton to Newbury took just under half an hour and Didcot to Southampton over three hours.

I like the footnote that says calls in daylight only (essentially) - tho that would appear to be a halt to serve only a farm from a glance at the OS modern map.

 

[nickswift99]

The timetable for 1950 is on the Timetable World website:
https://timetableworld.com/book_viewer.php?id=6&section_id=1765
Scroll down to table 79.

It appears there were six trains a day on weekdays and eight on Saturdays, so slightly better than the current bus provision. Compton to Newbury took just under half an hour and Didcot to Southampton over three hours.

That's brilliant. Thank you.

 

[nickswift99]

I like the footnote that says calls in daylight only (essentially) - tho that would appear to be a halt to serve only a farm from a glance at the OS modern map.

The 1960s video of the route available here

at about 2 minutes in shows what is effectively the halt at Churn, which unlike the other stations appears to be an island platform with no station building.

 

[30907]

Thanks. The current public transport provision for the southern part of this section (Compton to Newbury) is 5 services a day. I'm trying to understand whether even though the local population has more than doubled in this period, public transport provision has actually got worse or just remains poor.

In the mid 70s there was a regular interval Oxford-Newbury bus operated by City of Oxford (possibly jointly with Thames Valley- pretty irrelevant as it was all NBC).
I used it quite regularly for a few months and ISTR it was hourly.

 

[WesternLancer]

The 1960s video of the route available here

at about 2 minutes in shows what is effectively the halt at Churn, which unlike the other stations appears to be an island platform with no station building.

Really enjoyed that film Nick - I'm guessing it is a bit distorted in the transfer from film to digital, but v interesting in any case.

 

[Taunton]

When the GWR 4-4-0 City of Truro was reclaimed by the WR from the old York Museum in the mid-1950s, it was allocated to Didcot shed for "light duties". Which didn't stop it being urgently turned out one day for a loco failure on The Bristolian.

But it's normal light run, when it was let out, can be seen in that linked timetable, which stayed the same for years, a gentle run over the Berkshire Downs on the 12.42 Didcot to Southampton, more than 3 hours for 56 miles. Turn round at Southampton, back on the 4.56 from Southampton to Didcot.

Now that return run can be seen to stop at Eastleigh at 5.13pm, and thence run on to Winchester and beyond. And the Southern's premier loco works, at Eastleigh close to the station, knocked off at 5.00pm. And a lot of the team there, especially the better paid managers, lived in Winchester, and got the next train home. How fortunate. So they got a very regular showing of a locomotive which, more than 50 years previously, had gone faster than any product of Eastleigh Works, or anything on the Southern, had ever done. Did one hear that, on instructions from Paddington, the crew were issued with plenty of rags and Brasso so that, in those lengthy pauses on the journey down, they could ensure it didn't let the side down.

 

[70014IronDuke]

.. It appears there were six trains a day on weekdays and eight on Saturdays, so slightly better than the current bus provision. ...

Well, not quite, actually. If you look, there are only 5 fully through trains southbound (the sixth only starts at Newbury) and only four northbound on weekdays. (the northbound table has more 'bitty' trains).

As far as the OP is concerned, it's five each way over his section of interest. I admit, though, this is about as good as I could imagine it getting for the time. (A recent look at the c1960 TT for the S&C showed just one through stopping train per day, with a 'commuter' train in the 'peaks' (ha ha!) at both the nothern and southern ends.)

Compton to Newbury took just under half an hour and Didcot to Southampton over three hours.

Yes, in most cases. But these (awful) schedules were exacerbated by long stops at Newbury of anything up to 53 minutes! (Time for a three-course lunch in the restaurant, I should think.) Presumably some of this was to ensure something of a robust timetable given the single track sections to come.

A quick glance seems to show the 3.35 ex Didcot as the 'crack' (!) train southbound, as it only had a 15 min stop at Newbury, meaning it did the whole trip in 2 hrs 38 mins. I make that an avg speed of 21.55 mph.

Compared to that, the OP in his day would have experienced the delights of SPEED, with trains rattling along the Newbury - Didcot section in 40 mins, an average of 27 mph

 

[70014IronDuke]

When the GWR 4-4-0 City of Truro was reclaimed by the WR from the old York Museum in the mid-1950s, it was allocated to Didcot shed for "light duties". Which didn't stop it being urgently turned out one day for a loco failure on The Bristolian.

A loco failed on THE BRISTOLIAN? One of Churchward's - EDIT oops Collett's, sorry - finest - a Castle, one assumes? And almost within earshot of Swindon to boot?
I presume the shedmaster at Bath Road spent the rest of his working days at the coalface of the GWR mine in S Wales after that?

I'm sure 3440 did a sterling job in this time of shameful and utter crisis on said train - but, as I'm sure you will admit, The Bristolian actually was a fairly light turn for the day in terms of load - 7 carriages FX, I believe? Even a Midland 2P could have managed that on the flat to PAD.

But it's normal light run, when it was let out, can be seen in that linked timetable, which stayed the same for years, a gentle run over the Berkshire Downs on the 12.42 Didcot to Southampton, more than 3 hours for 56 miles. Turn round at Southampton, back on the 4.56 from Southampton to Didcot.

Now that return run can be seen to stop at Eastleigh at 5.13pm, and thence run on to Winchester and beyond. And the Southern's premier loco works, at Eastleigh close to the station, knocked off at 5.00pm. And a lot of the team there, especially the better paid managers, lived in Winchester, and got the next train home. How fortunate. So they got a very regular showing of a locomotive which, more than 50 years previously, had gone faster than any product of Eastleigh Works, ...

<Cough> Allegedly. By some that is, from a very questionable stopwatch timing. In the dark.

... or anything on the Southern, had ever done.

I believe a Schools was timed on the LSWR Bournemouth line in tests at 97 mph? Reliably timed, that is. Mind you, I'm not entirely sure where the Schools were built. <checks Wiki> Eastleigh!

Did one hear that, on instructions from Paddington, the crew were issued with plenty of rags and Brasso so that, in those lengthy pauses on the journey down, they could ensure it didn't let the side down.

I can quite believe that story to be true, although it probably didn't even need any instructions from PAD.

But, as you well know, the SR was not really into flashy, one-crack-train-a-day stuff - it's main job was short- and mid-haul commuter trains provided by what was then cutting-edge electric services. And it did that pretty darned well.


NOTE TO OP (who is probably too young to understand much of the background of the above). There was a fair amount of rivalry between the various pre-grouping railways. One company in particular considered itself a cut above the others, and its supporters had - indeed, frequently still have - a certain tendency towards smugness that was/is not always justified - based on, well, 'fake news' is a tad strong, shall we say 'eagerness for a one sided view of things' - rather like football supporters and referees at times.
I'll leave it to you to work out which company that was.

 

[Taunton]

A loco failed on THE BRISTOLIAN? One of Churchward's - EDIT oops Collett's, sorry - finest - a Castle, one assumes? And almost within earshot of Swindon to boot?
I presume the shedmaster at Bath Road spent the rest of his working days at the coalface of the GWR mine in S Wales after that?

It was a Warship

Oh, and I think it was an Old Oak Common turn. 1100 off Paddington would be passing Didcot shortly before 1200. Just when 3440 was on the shed departure road nicely prepared for that lunchtime run down to Southampton.

Presumably some of this was to ensure something of a robust timetable given the single track sections to come.

Aside from our ribaldry, quite a lot of the line had been doubled in WW2, when it was seen as a key link to D-Day and beyond. This included the whole of Didcot to Newbury we are discussing here. You can see it in the video linked above. All the remaining loops were lengthened as well. Apparently a lot of the heavy work was done by US military construction crews in the lead up to 75 years ago. The line was really run as two separate sections, trains normally arrived on the through platform at Newbury, then pulled forward and reversed into in the departure bay clear of everything else for their lengthy stop. There was no shed at Newbury, hence having to run the Southampton line from Didcot.

 

[RT4038]

Thanks. The current public transport provision for the southern part of this section (Compton to Newbury) is 5 services a day. I'm trying to understand whether even though the local population has more than doubled in this period, public transport provision has actually got worse or just remains poor.

The local population may have doubled, but car ownership has probably increased 10 fold.......

 

[70014IronDuke]

It was a Warship

After writing yesterday, I went to make a cup of coffee and the thought struck me: I bet he'll say it was a Warship!
OK, sucker punch - but it was probably a Swindon build one, right?

Oh, and I think it was an Old Oak Common turn. 1100 off Paddington would be passing Didcot shortly before 1200. Just when 3440 was on the shed departure road nicely prepared for that lunchtime run down to Southampton.

I thought The Bristolian was up in the morning, and down in the early evening?

Aside from our ribaldry, quite a lot of the line had been doubled in WW2, when it was seen as a key link to D-Day and beyond. This included the whole of Didcot to Newbury we are discussing here. You can see it in the video linked above. All the remaining loops were lengthened as well. Apparently a lot of the heavy work was done by US military construction crews in the lead up to 75 years ago. The line was really run as two separate sections, trains normally arrived on the through platform at Newbury, then pulled forward and reversed into in the departure bay clear of everything else for their lengthy stop. There was no shed at Newbury, hence having to run the Southampton line from Didcot.

I suppose this facilitated the chance to connect into a westbound or eastbound main line train (or possibly both) - and then leave with passengers off the same train(s). Probably more profitable (or less loss-making!) than running fast for the few through passengers to/from Didcot and Winchester. In fact, from a place like Oxford, it was probably significantly faster to get to Southampton via changes at Reading and Basingstoke than directly over the DN&S - not to mention using the through train avoiding Reading General.

Yes, that video is wonderful. And the 43xx is handling quite a load - looks like 5 or 6 carriages. IT looks a delightful line. Wonder if you could do a round trip Southampton - Newbury - Didcot - Cheltenham - (M&SWJR ) Swindon Town - Andover - Southampton in a day? Both fascinating lost routes.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The local population may have doubled, but car ownership has probably increased 10 fold.......

This, and more. OP - how many houses in Compton have at least two cars in their drive/garages today? That would have been more or less unthinkable in 1962.

 

[nickswift99]

This, and more. OP - how many houses in Compton have at least two cars in their drive/garages today? That would have been more or less unthinkable in 1962.

Agreed. But getting people to use public transport requires that there’s a convenient affordable alternative.

Obviously that can’t be the railway any more but the old timetable provides an insight into historic public service provision.

 

[eastwestdivide]

A few snippets from the 1971 Oakwood Press publication on the DN&SR:
May 1885, four trains each way on weekdays only, of which one was a mixed train (goods+passenger)
"This basic service never altered very much"
July 1895, an "improved" service with an additional train described as "fast" by omitting a few stops
By Aug 1914, passenger services had "reached a high-water mark" - six each way Didcot-Newbury, and eight south of Newbury, plus a summer Sundays excursion between Newbury, Winchester and Southampton.
After the start of the First World War, extended periods when all passenger traffic was suspended to make way for military specials.
1938, four through trains between Didcot and Southampton, of which one started from Oxford, plus one each way Didcot-Eastleigh, plus early morning trains Newbury to Didcot and Newbury-Southampton. One Sunday service, afternoon Oxford-Lambourn, "primarily a milk train".
Second World War, doubling of various sections, for which all passenger services suspended for 8 months from August 1942, then a "tidal wave of traffic", 16,000 military trains using the line in the 12 months run-up to D-day in 1944.
After the war, but "long before 1948 nationalisation", the line had returned to its "habitual somnolence, deserted by passengers who had found other means of transport during the long period of closure".

 

[70014IronDuke]

Agreed. But getting people to use public transport requires that there’s a convenient affordable alternative.

Definitely.

Obviously that can’t be the railway any more but the old timetable provides an insight into historic public service provision.

Well, it's a bit tenuous, TBH. I think Compton was lucky to have 5 trains each way per day in 1960 - there were probably hundreds of villages of similar size with railway stations but with fewer trains. (And we have similar situations still today.)

Good luck with your campaign, however!

 

[70014IronDuke]

..
Second World War, doubling of various sections, for which all passenger services suspended for 8 months from August 1942, then a "tidal wave of traffic", 16,000 military trains using the line in the 12 months run-up to D-day in 1944.....

Wow! Absolutely fascinating post. Thanks.

 

[4141]

Wonder if you could do a round trip Southampton - Newbury - Didcot - Cheltenham - (M&SWJR ) Swindon Town - Andover - Southampton in a day? Both fascinating lost routes.

Lovely idea, but doubtful - even prior to the decimation of the M&SWJR in 1958, the last passenger train from Cheltenham to Southampton was at 1.56pm, the 5.25 only went as far as Andover. This may interest you...https://sites.google.com/site/glouc...thington-signal-box---the-last-train-register

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

In the mid 70s there was a regular interval Oxford-Newbury bus operated by City of Oxford (possibly jointly with Thames Valley- pretty irrelevant as it was all NBC).
I used it quite regularly for a few months and ISTR it was hourly.

Yes I remember using it often traveling from Oxford to Harwell for neutron scattering experimens in the old Pluto and Dido reactors when Harwell was the AERE

It ran from the old Gloucester green bus station.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Lovely idea, but doubtful - even prior to the decimation of the M&SWJR in 1958, the last passenger train from Cheltenham to Southampton was at 1.56pm, the 5.25 only went as far as Andover. This may interest you...https://sites.google.com/site/glouc...thington-signal-box---the-last-train-register

It's a lost world, isn't it? I guess the likes lingered on until early 66 when the S&D closed.

 

[70014IronDuke]

A few snippets from the 1971 Oakwood Press publication on the DN&SR:...

Second World War, doubling of various sections, for which all passenger services suspended for 8 months from August 1942, then a "tidal wave of traffic", 16,000 military trains using the line in the 12 months run-up to D-day in 1944. .. .

Of course, we can't take that 12 months as strictly 365 days, but it's all we've got to go on. That makes an average of 44 trains a day, almost one train each way per hour.

Not so busy in today's world, but most of these would have been heavy goods trains and under wartime conditions, and with single-line sections, that would have taken some doing.

 

[nickswift99]

Of course, we can't take that 12 months as strictly 365 days, but it's all we've got to go on. That makes an average of 44 trains a day, almost one train each way per hour.

Not so busy in today's world, but most of these would have been heavy goods trains and under wartime conditions, and with single-line sections, that would have taken some doing.

Especially when you compare it to the 10 or so movements a day normally, or the even more extreme single milk train on a Sunday (Although I believe all passenger services were suspended for the duration to create capacity).

 

[Taunton]

Of course, we can't take that 12 months as strictly 365 days, but it's all we've got to go on. That makes an average of 44 trains a day, almost one train each way per hour.

Not so busy in today's world, but most of these would have been heavy goods trains and under wartime conditions, and with single-line sections, that would have taken some doing.

Of course, in those extreme times accurate record keeping was not to the forefront, and it's quite possible that the arithmetic went the other way, someone said casually "we had a train an hour for months on end, you know", and someone else calculated forward from that.

The Southern were heavily represented on the Railway Executive who ran the railway in wartime, and it's said that when Didcot to Newbury was doubled first, and then on to Woodhay, first station down the Southampton line, the Southern stopped further progress because they didn't want a GWR double track line at Southampton ...

Regarding current travel patterns, there is maybe some demand from the area to Oxford, to Reading, and to London. Only the first would make any use of a Didcot-Newbury line, which were not through routed to Oxford, and would be difficult to compete with road travel on the parallel modernised A34. Few houses are walking distance from the old stations, so you would need to get the car out anyway. That sort of "against the grain" rail line just doesn't work nowadays.

 

[DerekC]

Would have made a cracking freight route (with a bit of grade separation at its junctions) - and helped to solve capacity problems through Winchester. Might even not have needed to spend so much money at Reading!

 

[edwin_m]

difficult to compete with road travel on the parallel modernised A34.

Especially as the modernised A34 takes up the formation in several places!

 

[Taunton]

The book to read is George Behrend's "Gone With Regret", about the GWR. A prominent railway (and elsewhere) author, Behrend lived at Burghclere, on the Southampton line, and wrote about experiencing it from his childhood in the 1920s through to closure. Even in the 'golden days' he said the booking office takings at the (fully staffed) station for the day were often just sixpence. And that was the OLD sixpence.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Thanks, Taunton.
You mean they built it and (next to) nobody came. Worth knowing.