EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[DynamicSpirit]

I think what provoked Trump was something Khan wrote in the Guardian:

It’s un-British to roll out the red carpet for Donald Trump
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/01/donald-trump-state-visit-red-carpet-unbritish

I wouldn't disagree with anything in the article.

That seems a very balanced article. Obviously it's critical of some things Trump has done, but it presents the criticisms in a well argued way. There's nothing in that that article should provoke a reasonable, emotionally mature, rational, adult into calling the author a 'stone cold loser'.

 

[edwin_m]

That seems a very balanced article. Obviously it's critical of some things Trump has done, but it presents the criticisms in a well argued way. There's nothing in that that article should provoke a reasonable, emotionally mature, rational, adult into calling the author a 'stone cold loser'.

Seems like a classic case of insulting your opponent personally because you haven't got an answer to their arguments.

 

[yorkie]

I think the NHS deserves it's own thread...

If someone is able to click the 'report' button on the first off topic post, and provide us with a list of subsequent post numbers to be split into a new thread, along with a suggestion for an appropriate thread title for that thread, we can split a selection of posts from any thread into a new thread.

Edit: someone has now done this and the new thread is here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/privatisation-of-the-nhs-discussion.183814/

For future reference, it is better if people create new threads themselves rather than ask us to split off topic posts into a new topic, as this can be very time consuming, especially if anyone has made a post which spans both topics. Thanks

 

[Howardh]

If someone is able to click the 'report' button on the first off topic post, and provide us with a list of subsequent post numbers to be split into a new thread, along with a suggestion for an appropriate thread title for that thread, we can split a selection of posts from any thread into a new thread.

Edit: someone has now done this and the new thread is here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/privatisation-of-the-nhs-discussion.183814/

For future reference, it is better if people create new threads themselves rather than ask us to split off topic posts into a new topic, as this can be very time consuming, especially if anyone has made a post which spans both topics. Thanks

Actually, it was my error, I wrote that, then stopped and deleted it, and it re-appeared when I was quoting another post when I thought it was deleted; which is why the sentence stops half-way.

 

[radamfi]

Interesting to see that in 63 Up, the only participant to admit to voting Leave was Tony the cabbie, who you would expect to be a Leaver if you were going off stereotypes, although not everyone was asked for their opinion, at least on screen. But even Tony appeared to have changed his mind.

 

[nidave]

Now people who voted brexit are being told they knew what they voted for if they loose their jobs due to no deal

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1137083889187508224?s=19

 

[nidave]

This is the level of lies coming from TBP MEP's

Lance Forman MEP elect

This is the voting method at the EU parliament. Just practicing voting ‘No’. From what I am finding it seems that legislation proposed by the unelected commission always passes. Have only been here a day, but it’s very clear, there is no democracy here.

https://twitter.com/LanceForman/status/1138409109554778112

Trying to diceive the public and is rightly being called out on it. Funny he was elected as an MEP and says its not democratic

 

[EM2]

YouGov poll shows what Conservative Party members would be willing to allow to happen if meant Brexit would go ahead:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...mpaign=conservative_members_june_2019_mindset

So dedicated to accomplishing Brexit are Tory members that a majority (54%) would be willing to countenance the destruction of their own party if necessary. Only a third (36%) put the party’s preservation above steering Britain out of the EU.

Party members are also willing to sacrifice another fundamental tenant of Conservative belief in order to bring about Brexit: unionism.* Asked whether they would rather avert Brexit if it would lead to Scotland or Northern Ireland breaking away from the UK, respectively 63% and 59% of party members would be willing to pay for Brexit with the breakup of the United Kingdom.

Conservative members are not just ideologically committed to Brexit – they also genuinely believe that the failure to deliver on the result of the 2016 referendum will bring about the destruction of the party’s electoral chances. Indeed, half (51%) of members believe that Britain ending up staying in the EU after all would damage the party to the extent that it will never lead a government again, and another 29% think it would put the party out of power for multiple elections to come.

 

[Struner]

The Titanic has many masters...

 

[Mag_seven]

YouGov poll shows what Conservative Party members would be willing to allow to happen if meant Brexit would go ahead:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...mpaign=conservative_members_june_2019_mindset

As well as no longer being the party of the Union, they are also no longer the party of economic responsibility:

A similar proportion (61%) would also be willing to countenance significant economic damage done to the British economy in order to leave the EU.

Remember that whenever a Tory states that a Corbyn government would wreck the economy.

 

[EM2]

Johnson describes Brexit as a time of national crisis.
Javid calls it one of the gravest challenges we've faced in a generation.
And these are people in favour of it!

 

[3141]

Johnson describes Brexit as a time of national crisis.
Javid calls it one of the gravest challenges we've faced in a generation.
And these are people in favour of it!

I think they are both saying that sorting out the Brexit issue is a national crisis and a huge challenge; they're not saying that Brexit itself, i.e. leaving the EU, is necessarily a serious problem. In fact Johnson (and many others) appears to think that leaving will bring benefits. The YouGov survey has shown that a majority of Conservative Party members agree with Johnson and consider leaving is so important that they are prepared to see their party shattered in order to achieve it.

And I suppose that if you believe that leaving will bring great economic benefits then you may feel confident that getting Britain out of the EU will lead to electoral victory for the Conservatives. But if it doesn't bring benefits the electoral results may be very different from what they're expecting. They're overlooking the likelihood that even if leaving the EU does benefit us economically, that's a longer-term outcome, and that initially there's likely to be what economists call "turbulence". I think the next election is likely to happen well before any benefits from Brexit materialize.

It's not clear how Conservative Party members think that if the Conservative Party is destroyed in order to achieve Brexit, then it will win the next election.

 

[EM2]

I think they are both saying that sorting out the Brexit issue is a national crisis and a huge challenge; they're not saying that Brexit itself, i.e. leaving the EU, is necessarily a serious problem.

Then maybe they should have had some idea as to how to actually achieve it? They've both been in Government, one of them was a leading figure in the Vote Leave campaign, yet neither of them have the faintest scintilla of a notion of how to go about it.

 

[3141]

Then maybe they should have had some idea as to how to actually achieve it? They've both been in Government, one of them was a leading figure in the Vote Leave campaign, yet neither of them have the faintest scintilla of a notion of how to go about it.

Which is something Donald Tusk pointed out a few months ago, whereupon the Mail or the Express (or both) laid into him the next morning.

I think Johnson's failure is much more serious. He claimed during the leave campaign that reaching a deal with the EU would be straightforward. If he believed that he was naïve, and if he didn't he was lying. Even last night in the TV debate he was saying that the EU wanted the £39 billion in the deal settlement so strongly that they'd modify their position in order to reach a deal by 31 October. If I was an EU leader I'd be having to remind myself to be calm and objective, and not give way to the desire to let no deal happen in order to prove Johnson wrong.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I think Johnson's failure is much more serious. He claimed during the leave campaign that reaching a deal with the EU would be straightforward. If he believed that he was naïve, and if he didn't he was lying. Even last night in the TV debate he was saying that the EU wanted the £39 billion in the deal settlement so strongly that they'd modify their position in order to reach a deal by 31 October. If I was an EU leader I'd be having to remind myself to be calm and objective, and not give way to the desire to let no deal happen in order to prove Johnson wrong.

Boris Johnson's memory of whatever he said yesterday seems to be so bad that, if No Deal did happen, he'd probably claim that No Deal was what he had been campaigning for all along and he's absolutely delighted to have finally achieved it.

 

[nlogax]

I have a hunch that Johnson's time as PM will be even shorter than May's or Cameron's. Brexit will be his undoing as much as it was theirs, probably more so.

 

[edwin_m]

The YouGov survey has shown that a majority of Conservative Party members agree with Johnson and consider leaving is so important that they are prepared to see their party shattered in order to achieve it.
...
It's not clear how Conservative Party members think that if the Conservative Party is destroyed in order to achieve Brexit, then it will win the next election.

The only thing that survey found was more important than Brexit amongst Tory members was preventing Corbyn getting into Downing Street. So logically they must be supporting a Farage government.

Boris Johnson's memory of whatever he said yesterday seems to be so bad that, if No Deal did happen, he'd probably claim that No Deal was what he had been campaigning for all along and he's absolutely delighted to have finally achieved it.

I think he knows exactly what he's doing - it's the old Goebbels thing about telling a lie often enough that people will believe it.

 

[DerekC]

I think he knows exactly what he's doing - it's the old Goebbels thing about telling a lie often enough that people will believe it.

I agree with the second part of this sentence - and it seems to be an effect of modern media that what a politician said a few weeks ago gets buried under the huge quantity of data (not information) that has built up since. However I think Mr Johnson makes it up as he goes along, with the one objective of getting into Downing Street. Once he is there (and I fear he will be) then I suppose what will matter to him is to stay there as long as possible - and everything will be sacrificed to that end, including any and all semi-promises he has made to date. He will see Farage as a personal threat so will do everything he can to keep him away from power, so that means Brexit - but I wouldn't be particularly surprised on the one hand to see him pushing a re-badged and slightly amended version of the May Deal, or on the other leading us over the No-Deal precipice. He will decide on the day, with alternative versions of his next Telegraph article pre-written to suit.

 

[Howardh]

Just as we thought. Brexit means more immigration, even if it's "controlled"? https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-for-indians-to-win-post-brexit-deals-say-mps

The government must make it easier for Indians to come to Britain to secure a post-Brexit trade deal with one of the world’s fastest growing economies, a group of MPs have said.

Warning that Britain is falling behind in the global race to engage with India on its path to becoming an economic superpower, the Commons foreign affairs committee said ministers urgently needed to update their strategy on India and could not rely on historical links from the days of empire.

The cross-party group of MPs urged greater priority for post-Brexit trade talks with India, while calling on the government to facilitate the easy movement of people to come to Britain among priorities for improving relations.

Will all those thinking reducing immigration meant freeing up jobs and housing now realise we need immigrants (AKA cheap labour) and reducing the numbers from the EU (which were falling anyway) simply means we replace them from elsewhere?? It also means we have lost our freedom of movement - for nothing.

 

[Mag_seven]

I see the new Brexit Party MEPs turned their backs in the EU Parliament today. In the case of Ann Widdecombe that was a blessing in disguise.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

If I was in there I’d do the same thing..... I’d probably try and burn the flag down too haha

 

[Cowley]

I see the new Brexit Party MEPs turned their backs in the EU Parliament today. In the case of Ann Widdecombe that was a blessing in disguise.

She lives near Haytor on Dartmoor.
She is literally Widdecombe-in-the-Moor...

 

[fowler9]

If I was in there I’d do the same thing..... I’d probably try and burn the flag down too haha

Which flag would you be burning?

 

[DarloRich]

I see the new Brexit Party MEPs turned their backs in the EU Parliament today. In the case of Ann Widdecombe that was a blessing in disguise.

If I was in there I’d do the same thing..... I’d probably try and burn the flag down too haha

It was extremely rude to the musicians which as British people should nake us ashamed!

Seriously the act was puerile immature and really quite cringeworthy before we consider the really quite obvious comparison with the actions of the nazi party in the German parliament in the 1930's.

A very poor visual. Very poor indeed.

 

[Giugiaro]

I see the new Brexit Party MEPs turned their backs in the EU Parliament today. In the case of Ann Widdecombe that was a blessing in disguise.

If they were absent, that would make sense. A lot of sense.
(We shouldn't be in the EU, so we shouldn't be here in the first place)

But this was the most shameless, hypocritic display I've saw this year!
Their message clearly says: "I'm here to disrespect you, do my best to destroy your stupid little union, create more caos in the process and even take your money for myself!"

And here we are, EU citizens, including the British for the time being, paying our taxes to fund these acts of pure rabble-rousing!

 

[DarloRich]

I wonder if these Brexit party democracy warriors refuse thier pay and rations from such a corrupt body as the EU parliament

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Which flag would you be burning?

Was very much a tongue-in-cheek statement. I don’t do flag burning.... but I’ll be honest, the Brexit MEP’s actions didn’t offend me, but the Lib Dims with their sweary slogans just wasn’t on at all....

 

[Geezertronic]

I was no more offended at the actions of the Brexit Party compared to the actions of the Lib Dems and the "Bollocks to Brexit" slogan on the rear of their T-Shirts they were wearing, which I would have thought people would be more offended by but I guess it does not fit with their narrative to be offended by that. Probably the same people that were offended this time are the same people that support "taking the knee" during a proper National Anthem.

Personally I am not fussed by any of it

 

[bramling]

I was no more offended at the actions of the Brexit Party compared to the actions of the Lib Dems and the "Bollocks to Brexit" slogan on the rear of their T-Shirts they were wearing, which I would have thought people would be more offended by but I guess it does not fit with their narrative to be offended by that. Probably the same people that were offended this time are the same people that support "taking the knee" during a proper National Anthem.

Personally I am not fussed by any of it

The Lib Dem “bollocks to Brexit” really gets my back up. For a party which alludes to the word democracy I don’t find “bollocks” a very appropriate way of responding to a democratic vote. By all means promote what they believe to be the pitfalls of leaving and a rationale for remaining, but I’d expect a responsible political party to find something more sophisticated.

It feels as though someone has decided they want to appeal to young people as a vote-winning strategy and the way to do that is to sink to a base and unsophisticated level as if that’s all younger people are capable of identifying with.

I really find it hard to take the Lib Dems seriously. Who’s the leader and what’s the bandwagon this week?!

 

[takno]

The Lib Dem “bollocks to Brexit” really gets my back up. For a party which alludes to the word democracy I don’t find “bollocks” a very appropriate way of responding to a democratic vote. By all means promote what they believe to be the pitfalls of leaving and a rationale for remaining, but I’d expect a responsible political party to find something more sophisticated.

It feels as though someone has decided they want to appeal to young people as a vote-winning strategy and the way to do that is to sink to a base and unsophisticated level as if that’s all younger people are capable of identifying with.

I really find it hard to take the Lib Dems seriously. Who’s the leader and what’s the bandwagon this week?!

To be fair you aren't anywhere near the type of voter they are trying to attract, so offending you is very much water off a duck's back to them. Their position on the "democratic" nature of the dodgy mass market research the government did a couple of years ago is very clear, and entirely consistent with the "bollocks" message.

In terms of the t-shirts I thought it looked a bit like a rubbish stag-do, and were pretty rubbish. They didn't remind me of the tactics of the Nazi party though, so that's something they have over the Brexit party's display of backgammon