Aire & Wharfe Valley Future Capacity Ideas

[Bantamzen]

Following a suggestion on the Leeds Capacity thread, I've set this one up to explore people's ideas on how to best provide sufficient capacity for the Aire & Wharfe lines now & in the future. These two lines serve areas that are seeing considerable housing developments, and with their primarily Leeds facing flows (albeit that Bradford's re-focus on being more leisure based flows there in the future may grown) added to the rapid development of Leeds' business, educational & public sector mean that demand is going to grow rapidly.

So what would be the best way to help satisfy the growing demand on lines that have quite limited capacity, generally small platforms & currently limited amounts of rolling stock?

 

[bluenoxid]

The short platforms on the north side of the Shipley triangle and the single track sections and the Leeds platform availability are the limitations.

 

[adrock1976]

The obvious thing to do first would be to lengthen as many platforms as possible so as to enable 8 coach sets to run, with Selective Door Opening.

I would also try to straighten out Shipley station, as the platforms towards Bradford are curved.

On a third point, I would quad track Leeds - Armley Junction so as the York via Harrogate route has its own pair of specially dedicated tracks, so as to prevent delays on one route having severe effects on the other.

 

[matacaster]

Reinstate a pair of tracks from Leeds to Guiseley with crossovers from / to main line to allow overtaking.

 

[Neptune]

Resignalling would be a start.

On the Wharfedale line the sections are simply too long, especially at peak times leading to regular delays. An additional signal at Menston in both directions would help. Redoubling the line between Apperley Junction and Springs would also be a huge help.

Also 4 aspect signalling on the Airedale line beyond Shipley up to Skipton would open up extra capacity.

 

[Iskra]

Cheap option:

Terminate Bentham and Carlisle line services at Skipton. The saving on DMU’s could be used to improve frequencies on those lines without any additional cost/work.

Then use the 4 car EMU’s that sit idle at Skipton in the released paths.

You’ve then increased the service level by replacing 1/2/3/4 car DMU services with consistently 4 car EMU’s that can actually run at line speed, without doing any costly infrastructure work.

 

[Roose]

Attractive idea from an operating point-of-view.

Shame there are through passengers.

 

[30907]

I would also try to straighten out Shipley station, as the platforms towards Bradford are curved

Squaring circles comes to mind. How?

Then use the 4 car EMU’s that sit idle at Skipton in the released paths[./QUOTE].

Which EMUs are they?

 

[xotGD]

I've suggested this one previously:

Get rid of the Leeds - Bradford and Bradford - Skipton services.
Make Leeds - Skipton 4 trains per hour
Add a Bradford - Shipley shuttle

No more paths required in and out of Leeds but a lot more direct Airedale services. OK, so passengers to Bradford have to change, but compare the numbers travelling to Leeds and Bradford, and benefit the many not the few.

Leeds to Bradford will soon be served by LNER plus of course plenty of services to Interchange.

 

[Bantamzen]

The obvious thing to do first would be to lengthen as many platforms as possible so as to enable 8 coach sets to run, with Selective Door Opening.

I would also try to straighten out Shipley station, as the platforms towards Bradford are curved.

On a third point, I would quad track Leeds - Armley Junction so as the York via Harrogate route has its own pair of specially dedicated tracks, so as to prevent delays on one route having severe effects on the other.

Straightening at Shipley would be near impossible I'm afraid. The alignment of roads and housing developments to the east would make it a very expensive and disruptive job, there are no options to change alignment to the west and above P1 lines a small graveyard. I'm afraid we are stuck with the triangle that is Shipley. It might be possible to extend P1 and P2 with some signal moves and building extensions over the access road bridge however, although this would leave the platforms even more curved.

Resignalling would be a start.

On the Wharfedale line the sections are simply too long, especially at peak times leading to regular delays. An additional signal at Menston in both directions would help. Redoubling the line between Apperley Junction and Springs would also be a huge help.

Also 4 aspect signalling on the Airedale line beyond Shipley up to Skipton would open up extra capacity.

The size of sections beyond Guiseley are way too big, with Menston & Burley being in the same one meaning that any delays can see subsequent services waiting for some time to be cleared. So I definitely think re-signalling would be a good option for the Whafe line. As for redoubling, would there be enough clearance through the tunnels? I honestly am not sure on that.

Cheap option:

Terminate Bentham and Carlisle line services at Skipton. The saving on DMU’s could be used to improve frequencies on those lines without any additional cost/work.

Then use the 4 car EMU’s that sit idle at Skipton in the released paths.

You’ve then increased the service level by replacing 1/2/3/4 car DMU services with consistently 4 car EMU’s that can actually run at line speed, without doing any costly infrastructure work.

Or increase the capacity on those services to at least 4 car to allow them to soak up more passengers down the Aire line?

I've suggested this one previously:

Get rid of the Leeds - Bradford and Bradford - Skipton services.
Make Leeds - Skipton 4 trains per hour
Add a Bradford - Shipley shuttle

No more paths required in and out of Leeds but a lot more direct Airedale services. OK, so passengers to Bradford have to change, but compare the numbers travelling to Leeds and Bradford, and benefit the many not the few.

Leeds to Bradford will soon be served by LNER plus of course plenty of services to Interchange.

So you would effectively cut off the whole of the North of Bradford's metropolitan area from it's centre, and have even more people interchanging at Shipley? It can get very busy at Shipley at the best of times without even more people pushing along narrow platforms. Politically this would be a non-starter, and the flows from Bradford up the Aire valley are the largest out of Forster Square. So it might seem operationally better, but the railways are run for all the passengers, not just some. I'm all for prioritising capacity increases for Leeds serving services, but not at the expense of all services into Bradford.

 

[Neptune]

I've suggested this one previously:

Get rid of the Leeds - Bradford and Bradford - Skipton services.
Make Leeds - Skipton 4 trains per hour
Add a Bradford - Shipley shuttle

No more paths required in and out of Leeds but a lot more direct Airedale services. OK, so passengers to Bradford have to change, but compare the numbers travelling to Leeds and Bradford, and benefit the many not the few.

Leeds to Bradford will soon be served by LNER plus of course plenty of services to Interchange.

So your idea is to cut Bradford off from its northern district for extra services to serve Leeds which already gets the additionals it needs at peak times.

It also cuts Frizinghall off from Leeds altogether.

Shipley is busy enough without extra bodies interchanging there having to cross the busy car park.

Essentially this plan would simply clog up Bradford’s northern artery roads even more and drive people off the trains as people want direct trains, not the hassle of always having to change at Shipley. Not everyone is coming and going to Leeds.

 

[Neptune]

Cheap option:

Terminate Bentham and Carlisle line services at Skipton. The saving on DMU’s could be used to improve frequencies on those lines without any additional cost/work.

Then use the 4 car EMU’s that sit idle at Skipton in the released paths.

You’ve then increased the service level by replacing 1/2/3/4 car DMU services with consistently 4 car EMU’s that can actually run at line speed, without doing any costly infrastructure work.

There are no spare EMU’s to do this except on a weekend and then it’s tight. As I’ve said with the idea to cut Bradford off from Airedale in my previous post, people want direct trains not the hassle of changing. Both S&C & Lancaster/Morecambe services are very busy with through passengers from Leeds and Airedale. What is the obsession with 4tph off peak on the Airedale line. I work this route regularly and it simply doesn’t justify cutting through services to Bradford, Carlisle and Lancaster for the sake of getting the people of Airedale into Leeds off peak.

 

[Iskra]

Attractive idea from an operating point-of-view.

Shame there are through passengers.

Of course, but you would at least be buying them off with a better timetable further up the line and a more comfortable journey on a 4 car EMU rather than a wedged out DMU Leeds-Skipton.

 

[Iskra]

Squaring circles comes to mind. How?

Which EMU’s are they?

There are usually 32X sat at Skipton. Compared to the DMU’s the EMU fleet seems lightly utilised and more EMU’s are already on the way and more could be found quite easily if needed.

 

[Iskra]

Straightening at Shipley would be near impossible I'm afraid. The alignment of roads and housing developments to the east would make it a very expensive and disruptive job, there are no options to change alignment to the west and above P1 lines a small graveyard. I'm afraid we are stuck with the triangle that is Shipley. It might be possible to extend P1 and P2 with some signal moves and building extensions over the access road bridge however, although this would leave the platforms even more curved.



The size of sections beyond Guiseley are way too big, with Menston & Burley being in the same one meaning that any delays can see subsequent services waiting for some time to be cleared. So I definitely think re-signalling would be a good option for the Whafe line. As for redoubling, would there be enough clearance through the tunnels? I honestly am not sure on that.



Or increase the capacity on those services to at least 4 car to allow them to soak up more passengers down the Aire line?



So you would effectively cut off the whole of the North of Bradford's metropolitan area from it's centre, and have even more people interchanging at Shipley? It can get very busy at Shipley at the best of times without even more people pushing along narrow platforms. Politically this would be a non-starter, and the flows from Bradford up the Aire valley are the largest out of Forster Square. So it might seem operationally better, but the railways are run for all the passengers, not just some. I'm all for prioritising capacity increases for Leeds serving services, but not at the expense of all services into Bradford.

With what DMU’s are you going to increase capacity on the Bentham and Carlisle line services?

Which urban services are you going to rob them from to provide 4 car trains on relatively lightly used lines North of Skipton?

 

[Iskra]

There are no spare EMU’s to do this except on a weekend and then it’s tight. As I’ve said with the idea to cut Bradford off from Airedale in my previous post, people want direct trains not the hassle of changing. Both S&C & Lancaster/Morecambe services are very busy with through passengers from Leeds and Airedale. What is the obsession with 4tph off peak on the Airedale line. I work this route regularly and it simply doesn’t justify cutting through services to Bradford, Carlisle and Lancaster for the sake of getting the people of Airedale into Leeds off peak.

But across the network there are spare EMU’s and there will be even more in the near future.

I know, there is no perfect solution. I’ve lived at Lancaster, Carnforth and near Garsdale before so I have used these Leeds services many times and understand the inconvenience it would cause but: there is already a significant passenger churn at Skipton on these journeys and there is clearly an issue with Aire Valley passengers cramming on to the DMU’s which have inadequate capacity.

 

[Bantamzen]

With what DMU’s are you going to increase capacity on the Bentham and Carlisle line services?

Which urban services are you going to rob them from to provide 4 car trains on relatively lightly used lines North of Skipton?

None, Northern could be authorised to procure a few more CAF units to allow strengthening on the DMU services. Or failing that obtain some additional cascaded units as other TOCs release them.

 

[Iskra]

None, Northern could be authorised to procure a few more CAF units to allow strengthening on the DMU services. Or failing that obtain some additional cascaded units as other TOCs release them.

In an ideal world, this would happen, but I can’t see it. On the list of Northern’s rolling stock priorities, running 4 car DMU’s north of Skipton I’d expect to be quite rightly near the bottom.

 

[Bantamzen]

In an ideal world, this would happen, but I can’t see it. On the list of Northern’s rolling stock priorities, running 4 car DMU’s north of Skipton I’d expect to be quite rightly near the bottom.

Well some Carlisle services do already run in 3 and 4 car formations, and of course the extra capacity would not just be for north of Skipton. Why turf folk off one train onto another, when you could keep them on a longer train that can then soak up extra passengers down into Leeds?

 

[Iskra]

Well some Carlisle services do already run in 3 and 4 car formations, and of course the extra capacity would not just be for north of Skipton. Why turf folk off one train onto another, when you could keep them on a longer train that can then soak up extra passengers down into Leeds?

Because the DMU’s don’t exist, as we’ve just established.

I don’t agree with 3/4 car trains on the S&C while Nottingham-Leeds services are always 2 car.

 

[Bantamzen]

Because the DMU’s don’t exist, as we’ve just established.

I don’t agree with 3/4 car trains on the S&C while Nottingham-Leeds services are always 2 car.

No, they are not with Northern at the moment. That doesn't mean they don't exist, for example there is still a possibility of 22 185s looking for new homes in the near future. If taken by Northern they could either work the S&C or free up 15x/170s from elsewhere.

 

[matacaster]

With what DMU’s are you going to increase capacity on the Bentham and Carlisle line services?

Which urban services are you going to rob them from to provide 4 car trains on relatively lightly used lines North of Skipton?

Plenty of 185's available coming of lease from TPE. With high power, aircon which works during summer (as opposed to 158's), pretty comfortable, nice toilets. Use these on S&C inc extend service to Glasgow.

 

[Glenn1969]

Thought they were supposed to be staying with TPE? I agree Northen could use them

 

[Iskra]

Plenty of 185's available coming of lease from TPE. With high power, aircon which works during summer (as opposed to 158's), pretty comfortable, nice toilets. Use these on S&C inc extend service to Glasgow.

A nice idea. Not sure units with 1/3 doors will prove popular when they stop at Ribblehead in January. What about the first class sections too?

I’d say leave the 158’s on the S&C, put 185’s back on the busier Barrow/Windermere-Airport services and Chester-Leeds.

 

[gordonthemoron]

would it be possible to teminate the Carlisle and Lamcaster services at Skipton and then use these sets to increase the frequency of services back to their point of origin? In effect a win/win

 

[EIKN]

Hey if you don't want the 158's or the 185's let northern use them.dowm here on the scunthorpe line , a 185 , would be perfect to give us services direct to Leeds , even Carlisle via the lines your speaking of.
Locals here are crying out for more services.
I've not been on the EMU's that serve the Aire Valley line. But they appear to be the same class ( can someone please tell me what class they are ) as the ultra modern looking ' Heathrow express', if people are coming into the DMU's presumably coming off the S&C .

Would it not be simple to make certain that these EMU'S ( how long is one unit , can two be coupled together), surley passenger's for Leeds , could be directed by announcements and station staff to those , I agree that using the EMU's and slotting in extra services at the times when they are beyond full.
Is a wise move . Question is are there paths to have say one limited stop '

Express ' Emu ', and one all stations stopper . , With the S&C trains which should at least be 4 car , though I don't think the 185 is more comfortable than a 158 , and those from Hull , their Aircon was icecold going to Doncaster ! .

Also not having been on there in so long I cannot remember, but is there no way of having a through or avoiding line for Trains Coming off the S&C , to provide ' semi fasts for that line , by missing some station stops, that are well served by the EMU fleet ?.

Of course extra track, passing loops and platform extensions , plus resignalling, don't come cheap.
Hence suggesting better usage of the available stock you have now.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Does anyone think we need a dedicated thread for the S&C & Bentham Line services ?

 

[xotGD]

So your idea is to cut Bradford off from its northern district for extra services to serve Leeds which already gets the additionals it needs at peak times.

It also cuts Frizinghall off from Leeds altogether.

Shipley is busy enough without extra bodies interchanging there having to cross the busy car park.

Essentially this plan would simply clog up Bradford’s northern artery roads even more and drive people off the trains as people want direct trains, not the hassle of always having to change at Shipley. Not everyone is coming and going to Leeds.

Bradford would still have its direct services to Ilkley. Passengers to/from Airedale would have to change. I would love to see some data on number of passengers from Keighley, Bingley, etc to Leeds (and beyond) and Bradford, respectively.

Frizinghall would be in the same situation as Baildon, except with more services. Changing between a 4 train per hour and a 5 train per hour service doesn't mean a long wait.

 

[Glenn1969]

Forster Square's annual passenger usage has been over 2m 5 years in a row. Surely they can't all be going to Leeds?

 

[Iskra]

Does anyone think we need a dedicated thread for the S&C & Bentham Line services ?

The discussion here is relevant as it is in reference to freeing up paths/increasing capacity on the Aire Valley.

There is a recent thread on the future of the S&C services, but if you want to start one for the Bentham line feel free.