Frequency of Weekend Closures

[DynamicSpirit]

I realise that engineering work etc. has to happen, but I'm starting to wonder if anything can be done to reduce the frequency of line closures - particularly regular weekend closures - resulting from engineering work.

I live on the Woolwich line and regularly travel into London at weekends. Although this is perception rather than hard data - it feels to me like, every other weekend the line is closed for (unspecified) engineering works. It's closed this weekend, and a quick look at the SouthEastern engineering works map shows that something like half the whole SouthEastern network is either closed or has reduced service this weekend. And flicking through other weekends, that seems quite typical.

In the case of the Woolwich line, it doesn't help that the rail replacement buses SouthEastern put on are generally pretty rubbish - they are usually scheduled to run far less frequently than the trains would have run, and in my experience rarely turn up on time either. I suspect there's a vicious circle where few people use them because they are so bad, leading SouthEastern to not put much effort into the buses because so few people use them. Although in more rural areas, perhaps that problem is less acute?

This must surely be having some long term impact on passenger numbers. If people are to use the train and be tempted out of cars, then they need to know that the train is, on the whole, going to be running, no matter what day they want to travel. If people keep repeatedly finding that the trains aren't there because of engineering works, then you'd expect the result will be that lots of people are going to just head back to their cars, and not bother even looking at the trains next time.

Hence this thread. Does anyone know why engineering works are closing lines so often? (Or is SouthEastern unusual in that regard). And can anything reasonably be done about it?

 

[hwl]

I realise that engineering work etc. has to happen, but I'm starting to wonder if anything can be done to reduce the frequency of line closures - particularly regular weekend closures - resulting from engineering work.

I live on the Woolwich line and regularly travel into London at weekends. Although this is perception rather than hard data - it feels to me like, every other weekend the line is closed for (unspecified) engineering works. It's closed this weekend, and a quick look at the SouthEastern engineering works map shows that something like half the whole SouthEastern network is either closed or has reduced service this weekend. And flicking through other weekends, that seems quite typical.

In the case of the Woolwich line, it doesn't help that the rail replacement buses SouthEastern put on are generally pretty rubbish - they are usually scheduled to run far less frequently than the trains would have run, and in my experience rarely turn up on time either. I suspect there's a vicious circle where few people use them because they are so bad, leading SouthEastern to not put much effort into the buses because so few people use them. Although in more rural areas, perhaps that problem is less acute?

This must surely be having some long term impact on passenger numbers. If people are to use the train and be tempted out of cars, then they need to know that the train is, on the whole, going to be running, no matter what day they want to travel. If people keep repeatedly finding that the trains aren't there because of engineering works, then you'd expect the result will be that lots of people are going to just head back to their cars, and not bother even looking at the trains next time.

Hence this thread. Does anyone know why engineering works are closing lines so often? (Or is SouthEastern unusual in that regard). And can anything reasonably be done about it?

The Woolwich line closures are mostly down to the current once in a generation resignalling works. (The remains of the rest of the former London Bridge signal box area is also getting resignalled)

 

[Bald Rick]

I realise that engineering work etc. has to happen, but I'm starting to wonder if anything can be done to reduce the frequency of line closures - particularly regular weekend closures - resulting from engineering work.

I live on the Woolwich line and regularly travel into London at weekends. Although this is perception rather than hard data - it feels to me like, every other weekend the line is closed for (unspecified) engineering works. It's closed this weekend, and a quick look at the SouthEastern engineering works map shows that something like half the whole SouthEastern network is either closed or has reduced service this weekend. And flicking through other weekends, that seems quite typical.

In the case of the Woolwich line, it doesn't help that the rail replacement buses SouthEastern put on are generally pretty rubbish - they are usually scheduled to run far less frequently than the trains would have run, and in my experience rarely turn up on time either. I suspect there's a vicious circle where few people use them because they are so bad, leading SouthEastern to not put much effort into the buses because so few people use them. Although in more rural areas, perhaps that problem is less acute?

This must surely be having some long term impact on passenger numbers. If people are to use the train and be tempted out of cars, then they need to know that the train is, on the whole, going to be running, no matter what day they want to travel. If people keep repeatedly finding that the trains aren't there because of engineering works, then you'd expect the result will be that lots of people are going to just head back to their cars, and not bother even looking at the trains next time.

Hence this thread. Does anyone know why engineering works are closing lines so often? (Or is SouthEastern unusual in that regard). And can anything reasonably be done about it?

The Woolwich line, and others in southeastern metro land, have been / are being affected by works to resignal the last vestiges of London Bridge signal box. You will have seen a much higher than normal level of disruption, and this is on the back of the London Bridge works.

 

[kentman]

Looks like on the w/e 27&28 July & 3&4 Aug there is also a total closure of London Charing Cross / London Cannon Street / London Bridge (High level) with diversions to London Victoria or New cross terminators. Last one of this scale was during the London Bridge works.

 

[DarloRich]

Does anyone know why engineering works are closing lines so often? (Or is SouthEastern unusual in that regard). And can anything reasonably be done about it?

Because, bluntly, the lines need fixing and time to do so is very short, especially in areas of high traffic. There are many more areas of high traffic than ever before meaning access to those areas is reduced and so on and so on.

On the Southeastern point I suspect this is to do with the completion of the London Bridge related re signalling works.

This must surely be having some long term impact on passenger numbers. If people are to use the train and be tempted out of cars, then they need to know that the train is, on the whole, going to be running, no matter what day they want to travel. If people keep repeatedly finding that the trains aren't there because of engineering works, then you'd expect the result will be that lots of people are going to just head back to their cars, and not bother even looking at the trains next time.

And if the railway is to carry the number tos of people you suggest it must be improved to offer greater capacity to do so. That means closing the line to do that. It simply isnt practical IMO to do the kind of work required in the 4 hour ( if you are lucky) overnight possession windows that are available. ( that is 4 hours of productive time)

And can anything reasonably be done about it?

the choices are:

• To close during the week
• Try to do the work overnight over a much longer period
• Do the work differently
• Not do the work at all

EDIT - reading that again it seems harsh to the OP. Sorry. Not intended.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The Woolwich line, and others in southeastern metro land, have been / are being affected by works to resignal the last vestiges of London Bridge signal box. You will have seen a much higher than normal level of disruption, and this is on the back of the London Bridge works.

Ah, thanks. That does rather explain it. In the case of the Woolwich line, it's also on the back of building Crossrail, which itself - as far as I can tell - caused a couple of years of closures most weekends.

Out of interest, do you happen to know (a) when those works are likely to be complete, and (b) whether it's just a like-for-like replacement or whether the resignalling will allow any improvements in services?

 

[Bald Rick]

Ah, thanks. That does rather explain it. In the case of the Woolwich line, it's also on the back of building Crossrail, which itself - as far as I can tell - caused a couple of years of closures most weekends.

Out of interest, do you happen to know (a) when those works are likely to be complete, and (b) whether it's just a like-for-like replacement or whether the resignalling will allow any improvements in services?

I’m not sure about end date, can’t be too far away.

Improvements to services - there won’t be any extra; the capacity constraints at Dartford, Lewisham, Cannon St and Charing Cross remain, no change to the signalling short of ATO is going to help there (and even then, only a little). I suspect there may be some small scale changes to the way the signalling operates that will make things better, but this won’t be readily visible to passengers.

 

[hwl]

I’m not sure about end date, can’t be too far away.

Improvements to services - there won’t be any extra; the capacity constraints at Dartford, Lewisham, Cannon St and Charing Cross remain, no change to the signalling short of ATO is going to help there (and even then, only a little). I suspect there may be some small scale changes to the way the signalling operates that will make things better, but this won’t be readily visible to passengers.

The final bit (Lewisham) of the LBG to Three Bridges signalling will be completed by this time next year with everything else between now and then. The current work includes some of the Greenwich line, the link to Blackheath and the Angerstein branch.

 

[ComUtoR]

The final bit (Lewisham) of the LBG to Three Bridges signalling will be completed by this time next year with everything else between now and then.

I heard that the last bit at Hither Green/Grove Park will be done April next year. The gantries at Grove Park are going in as we speak but I'm not sure if it is going over to Three Bridges just yet.

The current work includes some of the Greenwich line, the link to Blackheath and the Angerstein branch.

It's live.