Class 15X Future

[anamyd]

Most of the refurbished GWR 150s offer a better passenger experience than Turbos in my opinion. 2 + 2 seating using Chapman seats with armrests and decent back support. Better ventilation in summer than broken air conditioning and to my knowledge, they have all been treated for corrosion when they were refurbished. I hope they stick around in the GWR area for a while yet, there are no plans to replace them in the current franchise as far as I know, but who knows what the next successful franchise bidder will propose.

I don’t want them to become a political minefield over the next 10 years, like the pacers did!

aren't those GWR 150/2s former Wales & West (National Express group) refurb jobbies (in terms of the layout change to 2+2 Chapman seating with "airline" and table bays, not cosmetic changes by later TOCs) which later split into Wales & Borders and Wessex Trains, with later companies (ATW ---> TfW and FGW / GWR respectively) taking them over...? The legroom in the "airline" bays on those is s***. I know I'm 6' 3", but it was noticeably less legroom than the equivalent seat on a 158

Great Western Railway
Train Operating Company
Arriva Trains Wales
Transport for Wales
First Great Western

 

[hwl]

I remember reading that when built the 150s had a design life of 30 years. I have previously read that the Cummins NTA855Rx engines fitted to most Class 15x. went out of production in 1997 and the spare engine pool is declining. Pacers have the more modern Cummins L10 series which lives on in updated form as the QSM11.

855 cubic inches is 14 Litres. The engine became the N14 used in the 175 and was available for another 15 years after that. The spare pool issue can be partially addressed with engines "spare" after 153/155 withdrawals.

The Perkins engined 158s will be a bigger issue as the engines may be better utilised in 165/166s.

The are 3 rail engine designs originally dating from 1967/8:

NT(A)855/N14
Paxman Valenta
MTU183 now rebranded as 1800

Only the last one is still in production (albeit very updated but they got a lot right in the first place). It also happens to be the bigger 6 cylinder Merc HGV engine option...

 

[hwl]

really?

i see 3 bogies(2 powered,1 unpowered artic on a 2 car set), as a 3-4 tonne saving.

as for axle load.
153=41 tonnes /4 axles = about 10 tonnes per axle
2 car super pacer = 55 tonnes/6 axles = just over 9 tonnes per axle.

we know the bombardier flexx eco bogies are up to the job...about 1T lighter a set and 100mph capable.
pacers are not under-powered, they are under transmitted( only 1 powered axle per car).
theoretically they should be good for 90-100mph if you use power-weight ratio!
by doubling the powered axles you should get a quality unit with good top speed and good acceleration,
if you want future proof for the drop-in trailer as well then a 300BHP block should suffice in place of the LTA10

I'm comparing a 2x 24m to your 3car super pacer (both the same unit lenght so and apple and apple comparison), hence 4 bogies overall not 3.
If using articulated Jacobs bogies they effectively can't be inside framed, so only the 2 end ones could be inside framed and Jacob bogies are heavier than standard ones which offset much of the potential weight saving from the end bogies being inside frame.

Eco-Flex are 1.8 to 2.1 tonnes lighter depending on the configuration. (Excluding transmission or traction motor weights).

The relative efficiently of the Voith Hydraulic transmission is poor (especially at lower speeds), the newer ZF mechanical ones are better (195 is better than 172 box) but the only way to get good performance from a smallish engine is electric transmission which is more expensive which undermines the cheap pacer philosophy.

Technology has changed so way to minimise costs with changing requirements have too.

 

[Neptune]

With all 321/322 fleets coming off lease there could be an option for Eversholt to refurbish the lot to replace all of the 150 fleet at Northern. With the Renatus refurb (air con, re-tractioning) combined with the Flex capabilities of the 769 this provides a modernised go anywhere commuter fleet with an instant capacity enhancement.

Take Leeds - Knottingley, a busy route which will only get busier with the new housing being built en-route. They would be ideal and between Leeds & Wakefield where you can stick the pan up saving fuel/emissions. Same with Leeds - Sheffield via Moorthorpe where they can pan up between Leeds and South Kirby junction. Both routes suffer mainly 2 car Pacers at the moment and even in the peaks when short formed. They can still do routes on all diesel too. Reduce to 3 cars if necessary on routes which can’t take 4 cars such as the Penistone line.

It seems a real shame that these fantastic units could see no future (excepting the hydrogen trial unit(s)) whilst the structurally similar but vastly deficient 150’s roll on and on and on......

 

[dubscottie]

Whats the difference (structurally) with the early and late 158s?

The early 158s have had issues with fatigue cracking around the door pillars and on the dragbox castings I believe.

The were the first all train on BR to use an all aluminium extruded body so their life span is still an unknown.

 

[Parallel]

aren't those GWR 150/2s former Wales & West (National Express group) refurb jobbies (in terms of the layout change to 2+2 Chapman seating with "airline" and table bays, not cosmetic changes by later TOCs) which later split into Wales & Borders and Wessex Trains, with later companies (ATW ---> TfW and FGW / GWR respectively) taking them over...? The legroom in the "airline" bays on those is s***. I know I'm 6' 3", but it was noticeably less legroom than the equivalent seat on a 158

Great Western Railway
Train Operating Company
Arriva Trains Wales
Transport for Wales
First Great Western

Indeed, leg room is the biggest problem on these units but I’ve found them to probably be on par with the airline seats in GWR 158s and slightly better than the GWR 153s.

They are more or less cosmetically the same as the 150s ATW have, except Wessex Trains ripped out the original lighting and put in new sleeker fittings with a diffuser that creates a lot less glare, and most units have been fully refurbished in the last few years so look a lot more cared for than the current TfW 150 stock! Wessex also removed the pillar by one of the doors with another sheet of glass like the rest giving the carriage an open feel.

For anyone not familiar, I have attached a photo of one in FGW colours pre refurbishment

 

[hooverboy]

what's a "Super Pacer"...? and LTA10 sounds like a Pacer Cummins engine, the 150 uses the NT855 14 litre

a "super pacer" is somehing new, along the lines of a pacer in terms of weight and body shell dimensions, but with uprated bogies(flexx eco) with 2 powered (paired) axles per car in place of of the single axle, and centre bogie(s) articulated.

armed with improved engines(cummins b6.7 or l9) at about 300BHP, to make it 90mph capable.

as for transmission systems...it's best to go with what has the lowest maintainance costs/best MTBF.The initial outlay may be a bit higher, but it will be recovered by the lower costs of overhaul/extra time in revenue earning service.

 

[Ken H]

when the 1st gen DMU's were ready for renewal there was much discussion about what to replace them with. There was the over-engineered Cl 210
Then someone said 'the best replacement for the DMU is new DMU, and Cl150 was born. The west midlands PTE would not have pacers.
replacing these unglamourous workhorses will be difficult - unless you build new something similar. a go anywhere bog standard unit with no bells and whistles to go wrong.

 

[krus_aragon]

a go anywhere bog standard unit with no bells and whistles to go wrong.

The trouble is, a bog standard unit without provision for ERTMS won't remain go-anywhere in the future.

 

[Andrew Holland]

Have to agree with the comments above about Northern's 150s. Am an occasional user of trains up here and yesterday did a return trip from Bolton to Manchester. Got on a 150 on the way down, absolutely awful. Didn't note the number but it had pink/purple coloured handrails I think and was dark blue outside. The seating was old, dirty, sagging, the interior generally was dirty, tired-looking and scruffy, not sure when the unit last had a proper clean, if it ever has had at all. Hopper windows that wouldn't close but mind you, it was a relief they were open as it stank of diesel inside and the noise these things make when chundering along at full whack is appalling, I couldn't wait to get off 20 minutes later but it already felt more like longer. One weird thing this unit had (or once had?) CCTV cameras, there were little domes on the ceiling but inside them the camera modules themselves have been removed (or just not fitted yet?) leaving just wires dangling inside. What's that all about?

On the way back I got on a (partially) refurbished 319, what a contrast. So the seating was still the same tired Thameslink seating but otherwise the interior had had a refurb and was in Northern colours (as was the exterior), and looked clean and tidy and of course the ride was much smoother and quieter (and I'm no fan of the 319s normally as I think they look and feel too much like a 1970s train for something built in the late 80s, much prefer the 323s though would really rather see Electrostars up here, yup I'm from the south originally!) and wasn't stressful to ride on. The 150s really need to go and yes, after the 142s go they will be the next worst train in Northern's fleet by a considerable margin.

 

[hwl]

The trouble is, a bog standard unit without provision for ERTMS won't remain go-anywhere in the future.

Agreed, what a bog standard unit for the future with a 40 year life span will look like is nothing like one built 20/30/40 years ago!

 

[LOL The Irony]

Got on a 150 on the way down, absolutely awful. Didn't note the number but it had pink/purple coloured handrails I think and was dark blue outside.

It's an ex-FGW.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, leg room is the biggest problem on these units but I’ve found them to probably be on par with the airline seats in GWR 158s and slightly better than the GWR 153s.

They are more or less cosmetically the same as the 150s ATW have, except Wessex Trains ripped out the original lighting and put in new sleeker fittings with a diffuser that creates a lot less glare, and most units have been fully refurbished in the last few years so look a lot more cared for than the current TfW 150 stock! Wessex also removed the pillar by one of the doors with another sheet of glass like the rest giving the carriage an open feel.

For anyone not familiar, I have attached a photo of one in FGW colours pre refurbishment

The one I got on only had 6 rows in the section I was in (one of the end sections) and no side-facing seat, which made the legroom reasonable. I don't know how many are like that.

 

[LowLevel]

Having lived all my life on the GN route, I can’t help but smile at all this. Non-gangwayed 365s in everyday use, in some cases three of them together, all DOO. So the only member of staff is nearly 250m away from those at the rear of the train.

I can understand it might be *desirable* to have the guard in a rear set simply to spread the staff out and avoid having all eggs in one basket, but to me it seems overkill to make it mandatory.

It's desirable to have someone in each set but the reason it is mandatory at some TOCs I believe is that the trains in question do not have a pass com override for the driver to use which is standard on DOO and more modern guard operated trains. Consequently if someone pulls the passenger alarm the train will be brought to a stand immediately via an emergency brake application and can't move until it's reset. If your guard is in the wrong set this means they have to clamber along via the track to change sets which is time consuming and difficult to achieve in the wrong location - say if you ground to a halt across the station throat at Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[Iskra]

Is there anything to stop further tranches of 195’s being built? Surely that (or other new units) is pretty much the only answer for the number of units Northern need. Building them in tranches would stop the same issue of a mass replacement being needed again in the future as they won’t then all life-expire at the same time. It would also go along way to delivering a more homogeneous fleet which would be beneficial.

 

[hwl]

Is there anything to stop further tranches of 195’s being built? Surely that (or other new units) is pretty much the only answer for the number of units Northern need. Building them in tranches would stop the same issue of a mass replacement being needed again in the future as they won’t then all life-expire at the same time. It would also go along way to delivering a more homogeneous fleet which would be beneficial.

Nothing to stop more 195 or preferable 196s (with gangway ends) being ordered for a very long time into the future apart form the 2040 diesel only deadline which could be addressed with diesel+battery solution and then there is the Committee on Climate Change 2050 total land transport decarbonisation target. Hence just a 20/30 year life span.

 

[LowLevel]

My usual approach is to give fairly high level information via announcement but to also invite further enquiry/more detailed questions about whatever in person while I'm walking through. That way I can read the individual and advise/inform/reassure where possible ie 'I'm x, I'm the guard today, if you'd like any further information or you need any other assistance please stop me, I'll be walking through from the back to the front shortly'.

By far the best approach in any sort of problem is to be honest and be hands on I've found. I always get stuck in and it's rare for the passengers to be anything but grateful afterwards even if they're cursing the railway itself.

 

[CosherB]

Is there anything to stop further tranches of 195’s being built? Surely that (or other new units) is pretty much the only answer for the number of units Northern need. Building them in tranches would stop the same issue of a mass replacement being needed again in the future as they won’t then all life-expire at the same time. It would also go along way to delivering a more homogeneous fleet which would be beneficial.

In the absence of diesel offerings in the form of Aventra, Desiro City and AT100/200 in the UK at present, and the fact that the West Midlands and Wales will have a combined total of 103 19X Civity units running in the next few years, it would appear that CAF is in pole position to take further metro and commuter DMU orders from other operators.

 

[whhistle]

If ROSCOs can get pay back a return within 20 years at a sensible leasing cost for the TOC. Adding electric transmission would add an element of future proofing and some battery component would get round the 2040 issue.

Isn't it just that no more diesel trains will be ordered after 2040?
I highly doubt we'll have a 100% electric railway by then.

 

[hwl]

Isn't it just that no more diesel trains will be ordered after 2040?
I highly doubt we'll have a 100% electric railway by then.

The DfT belief in Hydrogen is strong

 

[ed1971]

a "super pacer" is somehing new, along the lines of a pacer in terms of weight and body shell dimensions, but with uprated bogies(flexx eco) with 2 powered (paired) axles per car in place of of the single axle, and centre bogie(s) articulated.

armed with improved engines(cummins b6.7 or l9) at about 300BHP, to make it 90mph capable.

as for transmission systems...it's best to go with what has the lowest maintainance costs/best MTBF.The initial outlay may be a bit higher, but it will be recovered by the lower costs of overhaul/extra time in revenue earning service.

Something like this? https://www.twgram.me/tag/vt2e/

 

[krus_aragon]

The DfT belief in Hydrogen is strong

They seem to be proficient in the use of hot air and gasbags...

 

[ed1971]

The DfT belief in Hydrogen is strong

How safe is it though in a crash?

 

[ed1971]

I have read that Transport For Wales is intending to replace it's Class 175s in the early 2020s. I was wondering as these units are still relatively youthful, if they could be deployed by Northern on suitable routes?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Something like this? https://www.twgram.me/tag/vt2e/

Those are very much like a bogied Pacer. But I'd more think a Stadler WINK (son of GTW) - basically a downrated FLIRT.

 

[krus_aragon]

I have read that Transport For Wales is intending to replace it's Class 175s in the early 2020s. I was wondering as these units are still relatively youthful, if they could be deployed by Northern on suitable routes?

They could. They've operated in the north-west of England when they were new, so that may ease some of the route-clearing paperwork. And I'm not aware of any other operator that's sniffing around for them. (East Midlands are replacing their whole local fleet, but they haven't said with what. Posters here seem to doubt that 175 are their answer.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

They could. They've operated in the north-west of England when they were new, so that may ease some of the route-clearing paperwork. And I'm not aware of any other operator that's sniffing around for them. (East Midlands are replacing their whole local fleet, but they haven't said with what. Posters here seem to doubt that 175 are their answer.)

Refurbished well they could be of use on Northern Connect, allowing the fast accelerating doors-at-thirds Class 195s to move to local services where their performance would make a massive difference.

 

[anamyd]

Have to agree with the comments above about Northern's 150s. Am an occasional user of trains up here and yesterday did a return trip from Bolton to Manchester. Got on a 150 on the way down, absolutely awful. Didn't note the number but it had pink/purple coloured handrails I think and was dark blue outside. The seating was old, dirty, sagging, the interior generally was dirty, tired-looking and scruffy, not sure when the unit last had a proper clean, if it ever has had at all. Hopper windows that wouldn't close but mind you, it was a relief they were open as it stank of diesel inside and the noise these things make when chundering along at full whack is appalling, I couldn't wait to get off 20 minutes later but it already felt more like longer. One weird thing this unit had (or once had?) CCTV cameras, there were little domes on the ceiling but inside them the camera modules themselves have been removed (or just not fitted yet?) leaving just wires dangling inside. What's that all about?

Sounds like an ex-Great Western Railway (First Great Western) 150, which would've been one of their worst examples. As for the CCTV I don't believe Northern use on-train CCTV but I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. Yes all 150s are a loud ride with the windows open; the engines are of a 1960s boat engine design.

 

[anamyd]

They could. They've operated in the north-west of England when they were new, so that may ease some of the route-clearing paperwork. And I'm not aware of any other operator that's sniffing around for them. (East Midlands are replacing their whole local fleet, but they haven't said with what. Posters here seem to doubt that 175 are their answer.)

It's been worked out that East Midlands Railway will probably get West Midlands Railway's 170s when they become available, but they're only 23 units so not sure about the rest...

 

[ed1971]

855 cubic inches is 14 Litres. The engine became the N14 used in the 175 and was available for another 15 years after that. The spare pool issue can be partially addressed with engines "spare" after 153/155 withdrawals.

The Perkins engined 158s will be a bigger issue as the engines may be better utilised in 165/166s.

The are 3 rail engine designs originally dating from 1967/8:

NT(A)855/N14
Paxman Valenta
MTU183 now rebranded as 1800

Only the last one is still in production (albeit very updated but they got a lot right in the first place). It also happens to be the bigger 6 cylinder Merc HGV engine option...

One of the first places to have DMUs with Cummins NTA855R engines was Australia. Amongst these were the New South Wales 1200 Class Railcars built in the early 1970s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_South_Wales_1200_class_railcar

A bit of research reveals that the NTA855 is still produced for gensets: https://www.cummins.com/g-drive-engines/diesel-nt855-series

The Perkins 2006-TWH Phaser engines fitted to some 158s and all 165s and 166 has it's origins in the Rolls Royce Eagle design.