Potential nationalisation - What would happen to the liveries?

[GrimShady]

And it will not happen even during this so called 'Better time'. Not whilst this government are in power

This government isn't long for this world after the Brexit fiasco.

 

[Bevan Price]

This government isn't long for this world after the Brexit fiasco.

But what would come next - certainly not a Labour government willing & able to deprivatise the railways. On recent performances, Mr Corbyn seems destined to be even more disastrous than Michael Foot as Labour leader.

 

[The Ham]

But what would come next - certainly not a Labour government willing & able to deprivatise the railways. On recent performances, Mr Corbyn seems destined to be even more disastrous than Michael Foot as Labour leader.

I would be surprised if we saw a single party in power after the next election.

Brexit party may have done well at the European elections, but they need to produce a manifesto. That may put some pressure of voting for them, and it's a very different vote than a general election. Even then they've still got to get a LOT of areas to vote for them and kick out a sitting MP (who may well have done a lot of good at a local level so even if you don't like the party you may still vote for them) and are likely to have a lot of unknowns (other than the leader) which makes it hard to get the coverage at a local level.

Tories are likely to be harmed by Brexit (probably more so than the Lib Dems over the tuition fees) and have some quiet substantial rifts between different sections of the party.

Labour aren't much better off than the Tories.

Change UK may win a few seats but probably not a lot.

Lib Dems, could see their numbers grow again, especially in remain areas. Would probably be a good coalition party, but they are likely to have learnt from what went before and may not be so easy to do a deal with over issues which are key to their manifesto (i.e. going against them).

Greens could gain a few more seats, especially given the significant shift over single use plastics in the last 18 months as well as other climate change matters.

Paradoxically the two parties who would most likely work together at the Brexit Party and the Tories, however they are generally also chasing after the same voters, so chances are they could harm each others chances. Whilst those who oppose their view could vote tactically by picking one of two or three parties (the one that did the best last time around in their area) who broadly agree on policy (or at least agree on major policy and disagree on minor policy).

As such I'd expect no single party in charge, if also be fairly suprised if the Tories and Brexit Party were able to get enough sets between them to form a coalition without anyone else. As soon as you try and get anyone else they are likely to be fairly opposed to the views of the Brexit Party making that a hard grouping to make much progress on anything.

 

[GrimShady]

But what would come next - certainly not a Labour government willing & able to deprivatise the railways. On recent performances, Mr Corbyn seems destined to be even more disastrous than Michael Foot as Labour leader.

Another coalition probably.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Another coalition probably.

Bringing us into line with other European nations such as the Dutch , the Germans etc ....

 

[Arriva Fan]

This probably should have a separate thread, but if Labour do nationalise the UK railways, what would happen to ScotRail?

They're livery is ready for Nationalisation, just take the Abellio branding off, but could Labour take ScotRail off Transport Scotland and integrate it into the new British Railways?

I personally wouldn't want to see that, I believe Abellio are doing a good job and deserve to see out their franchise.

 

[Peter C]

I think that if an operator has a certain number of years left in it's franchise (say 2 or 3) then they should be able to see those years out and when they come up for renewal the franchises are taken over by the government as part of BR. If a franchise has over this hypothetical 2 or 3 years left, then they should be taken over by government at the end of 3 years. That makes it fair for all and ensures that BR could come about in one government term (5 years)


-Peter

 

[GrimShady]

This probably should have a separate thread, but if Labour do nationalise the UK railways, what would happen to ScotRail?

They're livery is ready for Nationalisation, just take the Abellio branding off, but could Labour take ScotRail off Transport Scotland and integrate it into the new British Railways?

I personally wouldn't want to see that, I believe Abellio are doing a good job and deserve to see out their franchise.

Cal Mac

 

[CM]

This probably should have a separate thread, but if Labour do nationalise the UK railways, what would happen to ScotRail?

They're livery is ready for Nationalisation, just take the Abellio branding off, but could Labour take ScotRail off Transport Scotland and integrate it into the new British Railways?

I personally wouldn't want to see that, I believe Abellio are doing a good job and deserve to see out their franchise.

Abellio doing a good job?! Try telling that to the people who actually have to suffer their complete and utter incompetance on a daily basis!

 

[Arriva Fan]

Abellio doing a good job?! Try telling that to the people who actually have to suffer their complete and utter incompetance on a daily basis!

I use Abellio (ScotRail) on an (almost) daily basis.

Excellent service as far as I'm concerned.

 

[GrimShady]

I use Abellio (ScotRail) on an (almost) daily basis.

Excellent service as far as I'm concerned.

I have to agree with Colin M. They have been awful. Not all their fault as they had to suffer the electrification of the E&G, let down by Hitachi and Wabtrc. Having said that, the lack of progress on "scenic trains" has been as joke as has the HST, I understand 158s have now been for WHL has now been kicked into the grass permanently, the 156 refit is horrific. They also didn't listen to the feedback with regard to the seating on 385s.

I'll be happy to see them go. The futures bright, the futures Cal Mac.

 

[Grassmoor]

Some time back I had a booklet largest in size it had some stunning photos of different aspects of British Rail colour schemes, uniforms, station designs plus much else. No idea where it went moved too many times. The booklet was printed in the early 1990s it seemed a big update was undertaken the trains especially ' Intercity ' had new smart colour scheme done looked nice to be fair if the railways were back in public ownership I doubt the old colour schemes would be brought back it would be all new.

 

[Arriva Fan]

The futures bright, the futures Cal Mac.

The same CalMac with a fleet stretched to breaking point, chronic under capacity, poor technical reliability of their aging assets and new vessels way behind their delivery date still at the shipyard?

Sounds great, when do they start?

 

[fowler9]

If also suggest that a significant number of people are now used to get the train which is red to get to xxxx or the green train to get to yyyy.

This is especially true of the old NSE area, so I doubt that we'd see a universal colour for each of the old sectors even if the colour schemes were suitable for modern standards.

It's also worth noting that if the plan is to let each franchise expire there's going to be a gap between the first and last, even within the old sectors, when there's still going to be "missing" TOC's.

They really aren't used to the colour scheme of the train. 6 different companies (7 if you include Merseyrail) operate out of Lime Street and many people still need pretty much guiding by hand to the right train.

 

[Giugiaro]

I'm not really sure nationalisation would happen all in one moment unless the UK had a single unified franchise.

As for the branding, given this would be a publicly owned company attached to the annual budget, spending with rebranding would have to be gradual.
At first, the nationalised company will have to work out its image and identity, structure and service offer.
After that is taken care off, National Rail has to upgrade all timetable and announcements to correspond to the new operator's name and services.
At this time of launch of public service, all trading branding from the old TOC's has to be removed, or covered by the new company's brand.
Over time, as trains have to go for R2 or R1 maintenance, the exterior painting and interior branding and moquettes can be replaced as they become aged.

NSE, Intercity Swallow brands may not come has these were tailored for the offer of the time. New services will have new names and brands according to the current reality, main brand identity, current trends and competition.
(For example, when in the 70s/80s would you have a service called あずま [Azuma] in the UK? It makes sense now because of the train being used and its relation to the Japanese Shinkansen)

 

[The Ham]

They really aren't used to the colour scheme of the train. 6 different companies (7 if you include Merseyrail) operate out of Lime Street and many people still need pretty much guiding by hand to the right train.

It depends on the person traveling.

Someone who uses trains infrequently would need to be told exactly which train to get.

Someone who uses trains fairly regularly would know not to get a clue one add the red one takes then to where they are going.

Someone who commutes daily will know which paving slab to stand so as to be by the door they want to get on for"their" seat

 

[GrimShady]

The same CalMac with a fleet stretched to breaking point, chronic under capacity, poor technical reliability of their aging assets and new vessels way behind their delivery date still at the shipyard?

Sounds great, when do they start?

Not that abellio has excelled itself in overcrowding, ageing assets, poor reliability (HST), late running new builds (385), late running refurbs (HST), no staff, broken promises, lies etc

It's coming....

I wonder what a Cal Mac livery would look like.

 

[tasky]

Obviously anything could happen to the liveries, but I would personally split services into

- Intercity/express/high-speed - Run by a national rail company, with one livery type for this class of services to give the impression of a cohesive national network
- Metro/local/S-bahn - stopping services devolved to local TfL style bodies, each region has its own livery to give the impression of a cohesive local network. These systems should have local network maps
- 'Regional' - whatever falls between those two poles, whether it be inter-urban or whatever, run by a national rail company, with a national livery.

Really, the separation of liveries between intercity and regional could be comparable to the way some DB trains are white/grey and some are red; the main difference would be the additional local liveries of metro/s-bahn services

 

[GrimShady]

I do wonder what a modern version of InterCity would look like. The original livery for Electra would still look acceptable today I think.

 

[Elecman]

The time to take West Coast and keep East Coast franchises back into public hands is now. There will never be a better time.

Then Cross Country, Great Western, TPE and MML run as 1 organisation, we could even call it something like Inter City

 

[Meerkat]

Then Cross Country, Great Western, TPE and MML run as 1 organisation, we could even call it something like Inter City

For what gain?

 

[GrimShady]

For what gain?

To have a common standard across the network with regard to interior, rolling stock,catering and livery.

InterCity should have been sold off in its entirety as a private company, in saying that the whole of BR should have become British Rail PLC.

 

[Meerkat]

To have a common standard across the network with regard to interior, rolling stock,catering and livery.

InterCity should have been sold off in its entirety as a private company, in saying that the whole of BR should have become British Rail PLC.

Why do we need a common standard for that?

 

[GrimShady]

Why do we need a common standard for that?

Why not? Worked before.

 

[Meerkat]

So did the privatised companies before.

 

[GrimShady]

So did the privatised companies before.

Not really hence BR.

 

[coppercapped]

Let's not start this debate again - but a study of history shows that the nationalisation of the railways had nothing whatsoever to do with the state of their finances or any other consideration. It was a purely political decision as was the nationalisation of all those other industries in 1947/8. The railways were not singled out for special treatment.

 

[GrimShady]

Getting back on topic....anyone got any ideas as to how a modern InterCity or other BR livery would look?

 

[Indigo Soup]

I wonder what a Cal Mac livery would look like.

Exactly like the existing ScotRail livery, except with 'Abellio' replaced by the name of whatever company is created to sit under David MacBrayne Limited for the purpose of running the Scottish railway network.

Let's not start this debate again - but a study of history shows that the nationalisation of the railways had nothing whatsoever to do with the state of their finances or any other consideration. It was a purely political decision as was the nationalisation of all those other industries in 1947/8. The railways were not singled out for special treatment.

In fact, the political underpinnings of railway nationalisation were that the profits that the railways generated should be used for public benefit, rather than for the enrichment of railway shareholders. Nobody at the time was anticipating (though maybe they should have done) the total collapse in railway finances that saw subsidies become a fact of life.

There's probably some sense, if the railways are renationalised, in operating long distance services as a distinct business unit from regional services. It would probably make sense for this business unit to present itself as a single brand, rather than having cross-competition between distinct operations on (e.g.) the London-Scotland market.

Regional services would probably be divided into several regionally-based business units with some level of local input into their running. Each of these would probably have its' own branding, as cross-competition would be minimal and there would be a desire for regional identities.

Overall, I suspect that the structure of the railway would resemble that of British Rail after sectorisation, because it made good business sense to structure it that way, and branding would follow the structure.

The new liveries would probably be quite minimalist. That seems to be the preference in new liveries, and is presumably responsive to current tastes. None of the old liveries would be used as-is, because they were developed against a different cultural background. There might be similarities - the new ScotRail Inter7City livery bears some resemblance to the BR Blue era Pullman livery, for instance - but this wouldn't arise as a deliberate policy.

 

[option]

Why is 'nationalisation' assumed to mean 'owned & controlled by one central government in Westminster' ?

Are the tram/metro systems in the UK not effectively nationalised?
Is TfL nationalised?
If the Scottish or Welsh govs took over their rail franchises at the end of the current ones, wouldn't that be nationalisation?
Merseyrail must be close to being nationalised, the infrastructure is NR & the new fleet is owned by Merseytravel.
West Midlands Railway brand is owned by TfWM.