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TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

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LOL The Irony

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So what is the big difference?
5A's are semi-peranently coupled like a multiple unit and are joined by bar couplings. The vanilla Mk5's are like standard loco hauled trains, use Dellner couplings and, unlike the 5A's, the carriages can all be coupled & uncoupled at will and anywhere. The 5A's need to be uncoupled at a depot.
 
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68011

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So what is the big difference?
there are numerous differences, far too many to list here and probably been covered elsewhere.
They should be referred to what they are officially called, Mk5's are the stock used on the Caledonian Sleepers, Mk5A's are the stock to be used on TPE workings, It's the same with the DT's that some refer to as DVT's, they are not DVT's so why refer to them as something they are not?
 
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Diagram one for TPE 68s which start from Manchester Area.... Start date should be 29th of July (subject to change)

5E23 0406 ex Longsight - Lime Street

1E23 0556 ex Lime Street - Scarbro etc...
 
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Diagram two for TPE 68s which start from Manchester Area... Start date should be 29th of July (subject to change)

5F48 0506 ex Longsight - Victoria

1F48 0555 ex Victoria - Lime Street etc...
 

xotGD

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5A's are semi-peranently coupled like a multiple unit and are joined by bar couplings. The vanilla Mk5's are like standard loco hauled trains, use Dellner couplings and, unlike the 5A's, the carriages can all be coupled & uncoupled at will and anywhere. The 5A's need to be uncoupled at a depot.
Thanks. I didn't appreciate that the couplings were different.
 

xotGD

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Diagram two for TPE 68s which start from Manchester Area... Start date should be 29th of July (subject to change)

5F48 0506 ex Longsight - Victoria

1F48 0555 ex Victoria - Lime Street etc...
Thanks for the gen. Do you know if these diagrams will operate on Saturdays from the get-go?
 

158820

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Is TPE driver training still suspended? or has driver training on the full sets even started?
 

sjpowermac

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The roof at Lime Street is very high. Not sure it would make much difference what end the loco was at, especially if wind direction was taken in to account.
Anyone would think that TPE were proposing to re-introduce Class 55s to the route and to leave the Napiers running under the roof, rather than the reality of a modern locomotive with a Euro Stage 3a emissions compliant engine;)
 

sjpowermac

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Diagram two for TPE 68s which start from Manchester Area... Start date should be 29th of July (subject to change)

5F48 0506 ex Longsight - Victoria

1F48 0555 ex Victoria - Lime Street etc...
Many thanks for those Jack, greatly appreciated.

From what I’ve pieced together (just from Real Time Trains and observations of current diagrams) I think the full workings are as listed below. Happy (as always!) to be corrected.

Interesting that 5E23/5F86 and 5F48/5T53 do only pop up from 29.07.2019, with the equivalent Class 185 workings to Ardwick disappearing for that week. Fingers crossed...

Diagram 1
5E23 04:06 Longsight-LIV
1E23 05:56 LIV-SCA
1F60 09:41 SCA-LIV
1E37 12:56 LIV-SCA
1F74 16:44 SCA-LIV
1E51 19:56 LIV-SCA
1P98 22:46 SCA-MAN
5F86 01:32 MAN-Longsight

Diagram 2
5F48 05:06 Longsight to MCV
1F48 05:55 MCV-LIV
1E25 06:56 LIV-SCA
1F62 10:41 SCA-LIV
1E39 13:56 LIV-SCA
1F76 17:44 SCA-LIV
1J53 20:56 LIV-Stalybridge
5T53 21:57 Stalybridge-Longsight

Standard 3 letter station codes used:
LIV (Liverpool Lime Street), SCA (Scarborough), MCV (Manchester Victoria), MAN (Manchester Piccadilly)
 

Boysteve

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Is it possible to always have the loco at the Liverpool end with these empty stock moves?
If 5F48 has to run via the chord then it reverses at MCV meaning it becomes the wrong way round. Or maybe if 5T53 runs via Guide Bridge and reverses at MAN the evening before then this solves the problem? Help!
 

Greybeard33

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Anyone would think that TPE were proposing to re-introduce Class 55s to the route and to leave the Napiers running under the roof, rather than the reality of a modern locomotive with a Euro Stage 3a emissions compliant engine;)
The Stage IIIA emissions requirements were superseded in 2012. Compared with the current Stage IIIB requirements, they permit eight times the particulate emissions and double the NOx.

The Class 68 is only allowed to keep using these dirty engines by virtue of "grandfather rights". All other new diesel and bi-mode stock (including Classes 230 and 769) is Stage IIIB compliant.
 

sjpowermac

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Is it possible to always have the loco at the Liverpool end with these empty stock moves?
If 5F48 has to run via the chord then it reverses at MCV meaning it becomes the wrong way round. Or maybe if 5T53 runs via Guide Bridge and reverses at MAN the evening before then this solves the problem? Help!
Don’t take my list as gospel, it’s just pieced together from Jack’s kind post about the initial workings.

5T53 seems to run Guide Bridge and then MAN.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N15991/2019/07/29/advanced
 

sjpowermac

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The Stage IIIA emissions requirements were superseded in 2012. Compared with the current Stage IIIB requirements, they permit eight times the particulate emissions and double the NOx.

The Class 68 is only allowed to keep using these dirty engines by virtue of "grandfather rights". All other new diesel and bi-mode stock (including Classes 230 and 769) is Stage IIIB compliant.
The dwell time at Liverpool Lime Street seems to be around 23 minutes for most of the day (the engine being on the buffers at a Liverpool was what seemed to spark the whole ‘Class 68s are going to poison us’ debate).

As I understand it the Class 68 is actually close to being Stage IIIB compliant anyhow, so I think your tag of ‘dirty engines’ is a bit wide of the mark.

Link here to a thread that’s probably better for discussion of Diesel engines and pollution...

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...trains-currently-in-passenger-service.181007/
 

Ben Bow

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Is TPE driver training still suspended? or has driver training on the full sets even started?

I believe that training for instructors will recommence this week, once they have completed their training they should be able to start delivering the courses for drivers. Obviously, time is the essence now if anything is to happen from 29 July. It may be that only a part diagram will be introduced initially which reflects the number of train crew who are available following training, further workings could be added as more crews complete their training. And that's all very dependent on no more issues cropping up, experience to date would suggest that shouldn't be taken for granted, sadly.
 

158820

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I believe that training for instructors will recommence this week, once they have completed their training they should be able to start delivering the courses for drivers. Obviously, time is the essence now if anything is to happen from 29 July. It may be that only a part diagram will be introduced initially which reflects the number of train crew who are available following training, further workings could be added as more crews complete their training. And that's all very dependent on no more issues cropping up, experience to date would suggest that shouldn't be taken for granted, sadly.
Thanks Ben, sadly is indeed the correct word. It has been a painstakingly slow process so far.
 

The_Train

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I think I'll move away from the debate about 68s poisoning the good people of Liverpool every time they arrive, otherwise I might start upsetting people with my beliefs around climate change ;)

However, I am interested to see that there is a new arrival of MK5 A (thought I'd ensure people knew what I was referring to in this thread about the TPE MK5 sets) stock from Portbury tomorrow as for some reason I was under the impression that all sets had arrived. Are there still more to come after this?
 

68011

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I think I'll move away from the debate about 68s poisoning the good people of Liverpool every time they arrive, otherwise I might start upsetting people with my beliefs around climate change ;)

However, I am interested to see that there is a new arrival of MK5 A (thought I'd ensure people knew what I was referring to in this thread about the TPE MK5A sets) stock from Portbury tomorrow as for some reason I was under the impression that all sets had arrived. Are there still more to come after this?
There were 7 sets of Mk5A's (TP01-06 & 09) in the Country until this latest set (TP011?) arrived at Portbury so still another 5 to arrive.
 

Chris125

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Earlier this year, I read an interview in ‘Today’s Railways’ with a DRS engineer and apparently Class 68s can be converted to Class 88s, but it’s not a simple task.

Did I imagine reading somewhere that they were slightly different lengths?
 

Erniescooper

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Don’t take my list as gospel, it’s just pieced together from Jack’s kind post about the initial workings.

5T53 seems to run Guide Bridge and then MAN.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N15991/2019/07/29/advanced
As well as being on the buffers at Lime St they also have to arrive at Longsight with the Loco on the South end in case it is due a Loco change and the No 1 end of the Loco has to be South end as well so the driver can get to the Mode switch without going into the other Loco cab. It will be a bit of a logistical nightmare
 

gimmea50anyday

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Did I imagine reading somewhere that they were slightly different lengths?

I'm certain I saw something along those lines myself, and it may have been mentioned internally too. According to Wikipedia, CS Mk5 are 22.2m whereas TPEs are 22.37m. ok, I know it's Wikipedia, but I haven't found anything concrete to back this or deny it either. My understanding was the CS mk5s were only 20m, whereas TPEs were 22m so I'm gonna trust Wikipedia in this case


They both say 20.5 metres on the side


Then I'll take your word for it as you have clearly read the data panel on the coach end!
;)
 

gimmea50anyday

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Is that the difference between a bar coupler and the CS Mk.5's Delners?

Yeah, a bar is literally just that. Effectively a bar that can be unbolted either at the pivot point on one of the coaches or in the middle underneath the corridor connection. Have a look under the corridor connection of any of the 15x sprinter fleets and you will see it and the bolts holding it together. Uncoupling a bar is a maintenance shed job whereas a Dellner (or schafenberg) can be freely coupled anywhere by banging the coaches together, these are used on nearly all of the current generation stock (except 170 which remain compatible with the 15x fleet)
 

supervc-10

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Yes I was getting at the length difference! The difference in couplers make complete sense given the 2 different fleets.
 

absolutelymilk

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I'm certain I saw something along those lines myself, and it may have been mentioned internally too. According to Wikipedia, CS Mk5 are 22.2m whereas TPEs are 22.37m. ok, I know it's Wikipedia, but I haven't found anything concrete to back this or deny it either. My understanding was the CS mk5s were only 20m, whereas TPEs were 22m so I'm gonna trust Wikipedia in this case

If you click on the references next to the length (the little numbers), you can find the source for the information, in this case the technical data sheet from CAF themselves.
https://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=277
https://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=285
 
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