HS2 Northern ‘Forks’ - Implications for XC?

[Envoy]

When the two northern sections of HS2 are built from Birmingham, what will be the implications for Cross Country services? Surely, nobody would wish to continue using the present slower routes? Will people transfer to the new trains on the high speed lines? Alternatively, will new trains be ordered that will use the present tracks say from Plymouth to Birmingham and then go high speed on the new line before going back to the present lines further north?

 

[swt_passenger]

Sure XC will be altered, but it will still be needed to provide links between intermediate stations. One proposal I’ve seen for instance has one of the northeastern services diverted to Hull, rather than York/Newcastle

However in all the previous discussions about this I don’t recall any official plans for through services to/from XC’s southwestern leg to run on HS2. I think there’ll still be XC providing the main capacity for say Birmingham to Derby, or Derby to Chesterfield, etc etc...

 

[a_c_skinner]

This is one of the problems of HS2 not being an integrated part of the current network. Plymouth to Brum won't go over to bi-mode trains fast enough to use HS2, so it will mean a change of train. Probably to a different station too (though I may have misunderstood that).

 

[irish_rail]

So not only will people from the south west have slower London trains owing to having to stop at old oak common , but we will likely lose many direct xc services too. Time to stop HS2 in my view!

 

[edwin_m]

It's not clear whether fast GWR trains will stop at OOC - from about Reading westwards, the existing XC routes are probably just as quick to get to Birmingham where HS2 can be joined for further north if necessary.

I've suggested many times that there should be provision for a connection east of Birmingham so HS2 trains can run into New Street and ultimately beyond. However it's unlikely a bi-mode could run at HS2 speeds so this would need electrification at least to Bristol. I would expect something like the existing XC service to continue after HS2 to serve intermediate stations between Birmingham and York, those south of Birmingham and possibly also north of Newcastle. These might be a bit slower due to extra stops, but the people who prefer a through journey probably aren't that time-sensitive anyway - some XC journeys are already quicker via London and HS2 will create faster alternatives for others.

Close integration of Curzon Street with New Street is quite critical in all this. There will probably be trams but ideally the road tunnel should be closed and fitted with moving walkways.

 

[The Ham]

This is one of the problems of HS2 not being an integrated part of the current network. Plymouth to Brum won't go over to bi-mode trains fast enough to use HS2, so it will mean a change of train. Probably to a different station too (though I may have misunderstood that).

Personally I wonder if that by circa 2040 that there may well be electric routes from Exeter/Cardiff with a new junction onto HS2 to allow "through" trains with a reversal and joining at Curzon Street by extending the services which would otherwise be starting there.

That's long enough for electrification to happen whilst not being so long that it's too long after the opening of the full Network.

 

[The Ham]

So not only will people from the south west have slower London trains owing to having to stop at old oak common , but we will likely lose many direct xc services too. Time to stop HS2 in my view!

There's no guarantee that the West of England services would need to stop at OOC, as to get to Birmingham would be faster from Exeter westwards and anywhere else along the route would probably be better served by using the new semi fast services or changing at Reading.


XC aren't going to stop running services through towards the NW from the SW as there's still quite a few stations which will still need to have a service between Birmingham and Leeds such as Tamworth, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield and Wakefield.

If rail growth goes up by 25% whilst HS2 halves the numbers of people on the XC services there's still going to be ~60% of the passengers there currently is, which is still likely to be above the number of passengers there was 15-20 years ago.

As I've pointed out above there's potential future potential for things to be better for the SW within a few years of phase 2 bring open.

Yes it would require pressure to happen, but cancelling HS2 will probably not actually help the SW, and may make things worse in the longer term.

 

[irish_rail]

Well one change we would like is more trains to the north west instead of everything going to the north east just for xc operational convenience. Liverpool and Manchester should have more direct trains to the south west ( in Liverpool's case it currently has none and Manchester I think just one)

 

[NSEFAN]

Surely you could leave the XC service as it is? It is essentially a regional commuter service these days rather than a "proper" intercity offering, and there's plenty of cities and large towns that need XC for fast-ish links. If anything, there will be more space for people making shorter hops, as the people travelling further (Birmingham - Leeds/Manchester) would be able to use HS2.

 

[The Planner]

I really don't expect a link around Birmingham on to the conventional network, it was always mooted for passive provision but there are other things I would bet my money on at Kempton Park first. I also expect everything to stop at OOC too, possibly even some terminating there (though I don't believe that would be a good idea)
Come 2033, will XC even exist based on phase 2B of HS2 happening?

 

[irish_rail]

Surely you could leave the XC service as it is? It is essentially a regional commuter service these days rather than a "proper" intercity offering, and there's plenty of cities and large towns that need XC for fast-ish links. If anything, there will be more space for people making shorter hops, as the people travelling further (Birmingham - Leeds/Manchester) would be able to use HS2.

That maybe so but Plymouth to anywhere beyond Birmingham is very much intercity and plenty travel from the south west to the north...

 

[The Ham]

Well one change we would like is more trains to the north west instead of everything going to the north east just for xc operational convenience. Liverpool and Manchester should have more direct trains to the south west ( in Liverpool's case it currently has none and Manchester I think just one)

Given that SE (including the likes of Southampton) to the NW would be quicker by changing at OOC it could well be that HS2 could allow that to happen.

 

[NSEFAN]

That maybe so but Plymouth to anywhere beyond Birmingham is very much intercity and plenty travel from the south west to the north...

It would be interesting to see what the flows actually are, and whether more people are "helped" by a hypothetical through XC service on HS2, or if it's better overall to keep the current pattern with various station calls between Birmingham and Leeds/Manchester. My guess would be the latter, to save people changes of train and also to avoid the need for bespoke high speed bimodes.

 

[Gareth]

I think it would be weird to have regional express services that go further than the intercity services; especially if they offer a direct service to certain places yet it would be quicker to change on the way.

I’ve seen things like Manchester to Bournemouth via East-West Rail proposed. Certainly if it’s going to be quicker to get to the South West via HS2 then perhaps legacy XC should morph into a more ‘alpha line’ sort of service connecting Birmingham with medium distance destinations.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think it would be weird to have regional express services that go further than the intercity services; especially if they offer a direct service to certain places yet it would be quicker to change on the way.

I’ve seen things like Manchester to Bournemouth via East-West Rail proposed. Certainly if it’s going to be quicker to get to the South West via HS2 then perhaps legacy XC should morph into a more ‘alpha line’ sort of service connecting Birmingham with medium distance destinations.

It was a GW route study that mentioned a Manchester to Basingstoke via Trent Valley and Bletchley, but as a new third service, the existing Manchester to Bournemouth via New St was retained.

 

[Gareth]

Sure, but the hypothetical point still stands that those sort of Birmingham-avoiding long distance services may well become more prevalent, whilst the via Birmingham services become more regional express.

But no one knows at this point. That said, I’d be surprised if the XC network ends up remaining largely the same as now, once HS2 arrives.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sure, but the hypothetical point still stands that those sort of Birmingham-avoiding long distance services may well become more prevalent, whilst the via Birmingham services become more regional express.

But no one knows at this point. That said, I’d be surprised if the XC network ends up remaining largely the same as now, once HS2 arrives.

Well that’s true, and why I mentioned earlier that one of the NE legs might be diverted towards Hull. But that EWR opportunity for a third XC south of Oxford seems to me to have been considered independently of HS2 effects.

 

[MarkyT]

Personally I wonder if that by circa 2040 that there may well be electric routes from Exeter/Cardiff with a new junction onto HS2 to allow "through" trains with a reversal and joining at Curzon Street by extending the services which would otherwise be starting there.

I think that's the most desirable of outcomes long term. The paths will be there on HS2. You 'just' need some extra junction work in the Birmingham area to allow portions from south and south west to join in Curzon Street terminus and then run north along the west or east legs, and that would release some capacity at New Street for local service growth. Electrification is the major issue as I would have though that bi-modes would be unlikely to be allowed on the new infrastructure, although Spain has some high speed Talgo units with diesel generator cars for peripheral off-wire working today.

 

[MarkyT]

Additional track connections for Curzon Street terminus at Birmingham to allow Cross Country services to run over HS2.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

Presumably, using a Bristol (BRI) to Sheffield (SHF) journey as an example, the future lies somewhere on the following scale:

-1. Miracle Plus : As 0. below, but with also the New Street stop eliminated at least for some trains.

0. Miracle: Through running by some now implausible means, and with slow sections and bottlenecks eliminated, getting the speed advantage of HS2 for the last leg and 200 kph railway for the rest. As just pointed out by MarkyT HS2 is not particularly unintegrated with the rest of the network, just built first.

1. No change: XC runs as now, the connection time to HS2 in Birmingham (BHM) negating the modest time saving on the BHM to SHF leg that would be achieved by changing to HS2.

2. a. Slight increase in journey time: all XC trains now do all the express stops, instead of skipping Burton or Tamworth.

b. As 2a. with further slowing due to fitting increased local trains onto the line.

c. As a.-b. yet slower because of HS2 trains increasing congestion on the Chesterfield to SHF section.

3. a. Slower yet: XC trains become subregional with more stops throughout the route, including Gloucester, Worcester Parkway, etc.

b. This subregional service now splits at BHM, introducing a change with opportunity to languish in Mordor Hauptbahnhof for half an hour, instead of just closing your eyes for five minutes until it goes away.

4. ....

With a bit of luck I might be dead before we get too far down the scale.

 

[MarkyT]

3. a. XC trains become subregional with more stops throughout the route, including Gloucester, Worcester Parkway, etc.
b. This subregional service now splits at Birmingham

This might come about in combination with the longer distance trains migrating to HS2 for the WM-NW/NE segment.
Splits at Birmingham could be engineered by diverting terminating services into new Moor St terminal platforms via additional Bordesley chords, but it is probably better to keep at least some cross Birmingham service on these routes, especially those calling at New Street, e.g. Manchester - Readings.

 

[Envoy]

Many thanks for all your responses. Keep it coming!

 

[sleepy_hollow]

That must be 5. Compulsory station change in BHM, with option of continuing slow or fast.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

....
Splits at Birmingham could be engineered by diverting terminating services into new Moor St terminal platforms via additional Bordesley chords, b

That must be 5. Compusory station change in BHM.

 

[The Planner]

Additional track connections for Curzon Street terminus at Birmingham to allow Cross Country services to run over HS2.

That is one hell of a gradient to get that XC line in and it would also mess the Curzon St throat right up. Doubt Freightliner would be best pleased either.

 

[MarkyT]

That is one hell of a gradient to get that XC line in and it would also mess the Curzon St throat right up.

About a 10m rise up to the level of the HS2 viaduct in about 1km. On average that's about 1 in 100, which seems reasonable.

Doubt Freightliner would be best pleased either.

At least it's clear of the sidings and cranes.

 

[The Planner]

It must be more than 10m considering the St Andrews line is below the Stours and HS2 has to pass over the Cross City lines.

 

[MarkyT]

It must be more than 10m considering the St Andrews line is below the Stours and HS2 has to pass over the Cross City lines.

According to Google Earth, the St Andrews line junction is at approx 110m elevation, roughly the same as the Stours. The line towards Washwood Heath actually drops down quite steeply from there to about 103m to pass under the Stours and keeps falling beyond, while the sharp curve round to New Street stays approximately level. That surprised me as well, but this is from the clever 3d scan model that is usually very accurate.

As for Curzon Street throat, I'd go for a single lead right hand turnout on the new viaduct giving access to the 4 south platforms. Note if HS2 London services routinely use the three north platforms in the new terminal, movements in and out these can take place in parallel with XC moves to and from the conventional network. Schematic layout as follows:

 

[MarkyT]

This drawing shows the new HS2 viaduct track level to be at approx 120m elevation at the point it crosses the Duddeston line.
https://assets.publishing.service.g.../file/378424/C224-ARP-CV-DPP-040-226700_0.pdf

 

[Glenn1969]

The Birmingham- Sheffield- Leeds service is currently too slow and very overcrowded. HS2 can't come soon enough for me

XC's post HS2 purpose should be the Birmingham- Doncaster service which should continue and increase to 2tph to replace the now-HS2 Leeds train. They should look at putting Hull or Grimsby on the XC network