NR responce to ORR/ ATW LONDON

[thefab444]

One minute people are saying that WMSR should be able to pick up passengers at places like Birmingham New Street and there should be no restrictions on competition (like there are in Virgin's WCML conditions)...

...the next they are complaining when anyone dares compete with WMSR

Indeed, the hypocrisy from Merlodlliw and friend(s) is copious and tiresome.

If WSMR are so great, let them take on ATW head to head. Why should they be shielded from reality?

 

[87015]

I agree.
You can either have a railway where different operators are free to "compete" for paths and anyone can set up an Open Access operation, or you can have one where everything is controlled centrally and there is no competition between operators (and no scope for Open Access). WMSR knew the rules, they knew what they were getting into...

But we don't have either.

Thats where it all falls down.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If WSMR are so great, let them take on ATW head to head. Why should they be shielded from reality?

Why should VWC (or other franchised TOCs for the matter) be shielded and not open-access outfits though?

 

[thefab444]

Because, in theory, they are providing a public service, whereas open access TOCs are merely there to make profit.

 

[Greenback]

Recieved this e mail from a North Wales listed member of The National Assembly Of Wales..


Dear
Thank you for this email and I will again take these concerns to the Deputy Minister.
Janet Ryder

My e mail contained the NR Response to the ORR.And use of stock, for A,Ms & M.Ps information

and another

Dear


Thanks for your email February 1st 2010 on the above and the issue with ATW and Wrexham and Shropshire. I was particularly in agreement with paragraph 4 on the shortage of rolling stock in Wales.



With best wishes



Eleanor Burnham AC/AM
Gogledd Cymru/North Wales
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


ATW never had any intention Of running a London service from Wrexham, it is only after W/S came along, that ATW senior management have invented a service that with all due respect, will never pay. Also Wrexham station prior
to W/S was in a state of decay, this is not subjective but fact.

After reading a few threads, it is pretty obvious some wish W/S to be damaged.That is of course their opinion.


M

It's not a question of wanting to damage WSMR! It's clear that people in N Wales do not like ATW, so I was wondering whether if it was a proposal to compete with an ATW service (eg WSMR switching a service to follow ATW down the Cambrian) they would object?

I share your concerns re the rolling stock situation. I like WSMR and have enjoyed travelling with them. However, other companies also have a right to bid to run services in competition with them. I don't personally agree with or like that aspect of privatisation, but without it, WSMR would not have been born at all! What can't be done is to claim 'WSMR are special because they refurbished my station and run a service with locos and coaches, so they must be protected in order for them to survive'. I am concerned that this is the image that is being created by some of the arguments put forward!

 

[The Planner]

Why should VWC (or other franchised TOCs for the matter) be shielded and not open-access outfits though?

Id be amazed whoever wins that franchise in 2012 gets that to stick, then it will be a free for all to bid for paths.

 

[TDK]

Id be amazed whoever wins that franchise in 2012 gets that to stick, then it will be a free for all to bid for paths.

I'll put my money on DB with Richard going for the ECML

 

[The Planner]

Dont think you are far off there. Thats what I hear on the grapevine aswell.

 

[merlodlliw]

It's not a question of wanting to damage WSMR! It's clear that people in N Wales do not like ATW, so I was wondering whether if it was a proposal to compete with an ATW service (eg WSMR switching a service to follow ATW down the Cambrian) they would object?

I share your concerns re the rolling stock situation. quote.

It is simply a rolling stock situation, if ATW want to run an open access
Aber to Marylebone OK hire in stock, but they dont , just open access Birm Int to Marylebone, using valuable ertms stock that could be used to give extra
services Shrews to Aber on the cheap, Thats what gets our backs up.

We await ORR ruling.

 

[Greenback]

I agree completely with that argument! Give the Cambrian an all day hourly service with good connections at Shrewsbury for N and S Wales first! If they want to extend a couple of those to London good luck to them, but I doubt it will be worth their while if they have to hire in stock. My preferres option would be for any additional service through from Aber to London to be complimentary to the WSMR service so that passengers and the rail industry as a whole gain, the latter by attracting new custom and the former through a better choice of service.

 

[The Planner]

Thats the plan for the ERTMS scheme though, an hourly service to Aber, the stock is already there for that, its just up to ATW how they diagram it.

 

[Chafford1]

I'll put my money on DB with Richard going for the ECML

But DB already hold the Chiltern Franchise to Birmingham,so DfT might be reluctant to award them the West Coast franchise as well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We await ORR ruling.

And if ATW get the go-ahead will their 158s be refurbished as stated in the prospectus?


http://www.thecambrianline.co.uk/d/Aberystwythproposal.pdf

 

[Philip]

Thanking you 'HSTfan!!!' Ive always wondered too, a 390 shows 160mph on the dial too.

Has anybody thought that 175s would be better than 158s for passenger comfort ect, thier acceleration and top speed.

So what if they are? They're already being fully used on routes that need these more, Manchester-Llandudno and South Wales, Holyhead-South Wales. Just because the route involves London doesn't mean you take the better rolling stock from other regions.

 

[merlodlliw]

So what if they are? They're already being fully used on routes that need these more, Manchester-Llandudno and South Wales, Holyhead-South Wales. Just because the route involves London doesn't mean you take the better rolling stock from other regions.

You are correct the better rolling stock 175 can not be used Shrews to Aber,
An interesting point from the planner, the stock is already there for an hourly
service he states. So I am wondering where these two DMU 158S for the London run come from?
which will take off the Cambrian for 8 hours between them minimum.

 

[tbtc]

An interesting point from the planner, the stock is already there for an hourly
service he states. So I am wondering where these two DMU 158S for the London run come from? .

Possibly some of the 150s currently with FGW could be used on slower ATW services and a couple of 158s "spared" that way. Its not as if the line speeds on most ATW services really need 158s, so a 150 could cope with the speed

 

[robert2000]

would a departure board from welshpool look sommit like this.

please bear in mind this is an example based on a current time being 14.45 on an average weekday afternoon. and there is no london departure as i am not sure on the timings, this is only based on the hourly between shrews and aber.

14.49 - Aberystwyth
15.01 - Birmingham International
15.49 - Aberystwyth & Pwhelli
16.01 - Shrewsbury
16.49 - Aberystwyth
17.01 - Birmingham International

 

[merlodlliw]

Possibly some of the 150s currently with FGW could be used on slower ATW services and a couple of 158s "spared" that way. Its not as if the line speeds on most ATW services really need 158s, so a 150 could cope with the speed

Oh dear,sprinters,plastic seats, where TBTC would you suggest they use these
150s, please dont mention Brum to Holyhead.

 

[Greenback]

Thats the plan for the ERTMS scheme though, an hourly service to Aber, the stock is already there for that, its just up to ATW how they diagram it.

The diagramming must be pretty slack if it can allow for units to run down to London and back every day. Assuming it's correct, it's arguable that the units could be better used elsewher ein Wales, cycling back and forth to mach for servicing.

 

[tbtc]

Oh dear,sprinters,plastic seats, where TBTC would you suggest they use these
150s, please dont mention Brum to Holyhead.

What's wrong with Birmingham to Holyhead?

Plenty routes in Wales that a 75mph train can cope with the timings for (there may be stretches with higher line speeds, but that's not to say that the current timings can't be run by a 75mph unit)

I've done some long journeys on 150s, like Birmingham to Cardiff

 

[Skip 10]

Were any of the trains that you mention running on time ?? if not then its not a valid argument, if those trains were delaying 1P01 everyday we would have heard about it by now and have been told to do something about it as we would be getting Q coded delays.

The 1p01 issue came frome the fact it and 2h22 used to be booked through tysley at the same time. It could quite oftern depend on who got there first.
6m55/1p13 is down to 6m55 getting in the way, happens very oftern and I always make sure I report it to control when it happens

Thats not what I said, read my post again, I said the 67s didnt cause problems because they could be pathed between other services. The performance is not relavent which is why I quoted the example of the 150. I said if there was space you could plan a 150, I didnt say there is space

.

Thats the point I was making if it wasnt for the performance of the sets the paths wouldnt have been made available in the first place.

Again, I'll ask the question, if a 158 can be pathed within other services compliantly then what is the issue ?? or is it the usual argument that the lovely cute puppy that is WSMR is about to get bitten by a nasty pitbull that is another TOC.

Ok lets play it fair, Give WSMR the same funding as ATW/Virgin and allow the same stops. Then lets see how it goes. We arnt saying we dont want competiton. Just let us get into profit in the first place and give us a fighting chance.

 

[The Planner]

I was under the impression WSMR have said that they will be in profit in the next 12 months ?? The very fact you are open access means you dont get the funding, that had to be in the business plan to start with or it would never have got off the ground.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The diagramming must be pretty slack if it can allow for units to run down to London and back every day. Assuming it's correct, it's arguable that the units could be better used elsewher ein Wales, cycling back and forth to mach for servicing.

How many sets will it take though ? if its only two trains a day then why is it going to take more than two sets ??

 

[Failed Unit]

Oh dear,sprinters,plastic seats, where TBTC would you suggest they use these
150s, please dont mention Brum to Holyhead.

If you gave me a choice of the Wessex 150/2 with the tables and the chapman seats, and the Arriva 158 with the chapman seats I would take the Wessex any day. I know a bit of love by Arriva would change my view point - but that is really my point the Arriva units are not loved so are probably the least pleasent 158's to travel on. A well looked after 150 is an improvement on an unloved 158.

 

[merlodlliw]

What's wrong with Birmingham to Holyhead?

Plenty routes in Wales that a 75mph train can cope with the timings for (there may be stretches with higher line speeds, but that's not to say that the current timings can't be run by a 75mph unit)

I've done some long journeys on 150s, like Birmingham to Cardiff

Bet you have, but not on ATW on that line. (Brum to Cardiff)

If 150s are spare, leave them in the Valleys,that would improve on the
pacers. My last 150 experience was CDF to Wrexham, it was awful,
like being on a bus.

 

[yorkie]

A 158 could not reach 90mph even out of Leamington Spa until the other side of Harbury tunnel as they just do not have the grunt, they would also not make 90mph leaving Bicester North on the down untill after Ardley tunnel, I have driven both 158's and 67's with 4 coaches & DVT on the same routes in places and there is just no comparison. As for reliability, 158's are reasonably reliable in comparison to the 168's however it is their performance that is not up to the job

Yes, that was really my point - that jamaal was saying performance is not an issue but reliability is. As you say it's the other way round.

 

[Greenback]

I was under the impression WSMR have said that they will be in profit in the next 12 months ?? The very fact you are open access means you dont get the funding, that had to be in the business plan to start with or it would never have got off the ground.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


How many sets will it take though ? if its only two trains a day then why is it going to take more than two sets ??

I don't know how many units it will take. How many units are needed for hourly Aber -Birmingham? If it's the same number as Aber - Birmingham with two extensions to London, fair enough, my concerns would be satisfactorily addressed!

 

[merlodlliw]

I don't know how many units it will take. How many units are needed for hourly Aber -Birmingham? If it's the same number as Aber - Birmingham with two extensions to London, fair enough, my concerns would be satisfactorily addressed!

It takes a 158 two hours Shrewsbury to Aber, or three hours plus Birm Int
to Aber. current two hourly service uses eight services Shrewsbury to Aber
Mon/Fri & eight back, I am no genius so I presume you double up to 16 in the time frames,I am sure some one will give the number of actual DMUs
used now. Plus if its also hourly to Pwlhelli that will also bounce up the numbers of DMUs required, I should think.

M

 

[tbtc]

Presumably doubling the Aberyswyth service won't necessarily mean doubling the Pwhelli service?

 

[Greenback]

Presumably doubling the Aberyswyth service won't necessarily mean doubling the Pwhelli service?

I've not read or heard of any proposals to increase the Pwllheli service. Probably just as well, my head hurts just trying to figure out the units required for Aber - Brum!

 

[tbtc]

I've not read or heard of any proposals to increase the Pwllheli service. Probably just as well, my head hurts just trying to figure out the units required for Aber - Brum!

I'd not seen anything either. Could get even more complicated if they tried (not sure there are paths to Pwllheli for hourly, of course), given the way the current services split/ join/ drop units.

Still, had a lovely holiday around there last year, would be good if the trains were a bit more frequent though

 

[merlodlliw]

I've not read or heard of any proposals to increase the Pwllheli service. Probably just as well, my head hurts just trying to figure out the units required for Aber - Brum!

The Dep Minister Ieuan Wyn Jones asked The All Wales Franchise to look at
making the Cambrian line hourly , Most middle day trains join & split at
machynlleth sections going to Aber & Pwhlelli, it is unlikly Pwhelli would miss out on some extra service ,there are several passing places (Barmouth/Porthmadoc etc) and this line is highly subsidised by the County Council for social reasons.

 

[robert2000]

A passing loop is required at criccieth and llwyngwril for hourly pwhelli.
currently it looks very tight on the coast for hourly, unless it is possible with the current passing loops.
or they extend current loops like they are doing with welshpool.