Drivers! a minute of your time please.

[Vulcan]

Hello everyone,

Could any train drivers (and I don't mean enthusiasts that think they know it all) comment or make suggestions about the following lists of controls and instruments? Do you think anything is in the wrong catagory, of have I missed anything out? Again, this is for the benefit of my ergonomic cab design project, and your input would be most appreciated.

Main Controls - to be within easy reach and sight of the driver
Power handle
Brake lever
horn valve
windscreen wiper switch
emergency stop plunger
AWS reset button
(for multiple units) the communication buzzer button
Sanders
Radio
headlight hazard button
TPWS panel

Main dials/displays - to be within easy sight of the driver, whilst looking straight forwards
Speedo
Train brake air pressure, and main air reservoir pressure (duplex gauge)
AWS sunflower thing
Driver's reminder appliance (DRA)

Secondary controls - need to be within reach of the driver. but not nessesarily as near or as obvious as main controls
Headlights
cab light
heater / air-con controls
loco parking brake
engine(s) controls (start, stop, etc)
the telephone
(for multiple units) PIS / destination blind controls
Passenger / freight swtichover switch
Data recorder input keypad

Secondary dials/displays
rev counter
Locomotive air pressure
oil pressure
engine temperature
Clock
illuminated clipboard (for notes, timetables, etc)

any help with this would be very useful. thanks in advance.

 

[driver9000]

The AWS sunflower is to act as a visual reminder to the driver so he/she can tell if they have received a clear aspect (black) or has cancelled a warning (black/yellow spokes).

The telephone is to enable communication between the driver and guard as the guard isnt allowed to enter the driving cab and there may be no corridor between loco and coaches.

I like the written outline you have given although I would like to have the sanders switch nearby in easy reach - some locos had it in the end of the power handle. The AWS reset button is also used to acknowledge a TPWS brake demand. Fuel gauges are provided on almost all locos/units externally and only need to be checked on preparation, they are of interest to the driver if they are preparing the loco or unit as you dont want to run out of fuel! A fuel gauge in the cab isnt really necessary in my opinion.

I look forward to seeing a drawing of your proposed design.

 

[Vulcan]

Thanks for that, I'll amend my list as the comments come in.

 

[royaloak]

Your locomotive air (main reservoir) would be combined with the brake air as it is a duplex gauge with the main res on the left and the brake on the right, remember the brake will only show a reading when the brakes are applied. Both are equally important, no main res then the brakes wont release and if it drops the brakes will go into emergency (and you stop a bit quick ).
On multiple units the destination is now part of the PIS so doesn't need to be too close, but the radio does in case of emergency stop messages etc.

Looking at your list cant think of much else to add.

 

[Vulcan]

Cheers Royaloak, I've made your suggested changes to the list. Radio has been promoted to a primary control, in that it needs you say it needs to be pretty handy.

We also have that problem with the 2' gauge air brakes sometimes!

and you'll be pleased to know I have started signalling to buses for them to stop now

 

[royaloak]

Very good (wheres the laughing and clapping smilie), that made me laugh (for all the RIGHT reasons).

 

[Vulcan]

good!

 

[vitesse]

Also the TPWS panel needs to be added and somewhere in easy reach/visibility, not like on our 150's where its been put by the secondmans side window

 

[gregh]

From a loco perspective, rather than a Unit: -

On a loco, the loco main reservoir and the train main reservoir pipe are displayed either side of a duplex gauge.

With a loco and coaches / wagons, you can run with no main res pipe without the brakes applying, i.e. as a single piped train, but it will take you longer to charge the train brake pipe back to running pressure after a brake application - you still need a main res on the loco though.

The train brake pipe is shown on a separate gauge on locos. I think that the main res / air pipe duplex gauges are found more on units (where you don't have a gauge for the main res pipe) than on locos. On a loco you will also have a separate gauge giving the cylinder pressures on each bogie during a brake application - is this what you meant by loco air pressure in "secondary dials"?

Locos should also have the brake overcharge button within reach (i.e. a Main Control) for over-charging the train pipe after a brake continuity test. The engine stop button should also be within easy reach, just in case you want to shut down that big diesel in the engine room behind you for some reason, i.e.a fire, and the auto system hasn't already done so for you. The start button doesn't need to be within reach of the chair, but it's useful if it is when you accidently hit the engine stop button when putting your foot on the desk at 80 and you need to restart a bit sharpish!!

Also close by (Main Control again) should be the headlight hazard warning button - the one you press to flash your headlights at oncoming traffic to warn them of a hazard in their path.

Under Secondary Controls for locos you might also want to add the Pass / Goods changeover switch to alter the brake timings dependant on what's on the back.

I've not seen a loco with an engine temperature gauge, rev counter, or an oil pressure gauge. I suspect the hydraulics might have had them, but they were long gone before i started. First Generation DMUs had rev counters though.

Hope that adds a bit, let me know if i can help any more

 

[Vulcan]

Also the TPWS panel needs to be added and somewhere in easy reach/visibility, not like on our 150's where its been put by the secondmans side window

Could you explain a bit more about what this is?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Gregh, to be honest, i'm a bit confused by all these air brake dials. If someone could list them all, and highlight which onces are what I've called Main dials, that would be really helpful!

I included engine management dials and displays, as someone requested it in the other thread when i was collecting ideas. Engine start/stop I would have thought should be somewhere reasonably handy but out of the way, to avoid it being acciddently switched off. Possibly high up on the bulkhead behind the driver's head?

 

[gregh]

Could you explain a bit more about what this is?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Gregh, to be honest, i'm a bit confused by all these air brake dials. If someone could list them all, and highlight which onces are what I've called Main dials, that would be really helpful!

I included engine management dials and displays, as someone requested it in the other thread when i was collecting ideas. Engine start/stop I would have thought should be somewhere reasonably handy but out of the way, to avoid it being acciddently switched off. Possibly high up on the bulkhead behind the driver's head?

They confuse me too, and i work with them :P

Would it be easier if i email you a photo?

 

[GB]

This is a TPWS panel (as seen on a 66)

http://www.east-rail.fotopic.net/p55979131.html

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Well I'm not a driver and have never even considered the job, BUT, if you're interested in Ergonomics, Vulcan, then there's a few basics which I would expect in a driving cab which was also to be a place of work; and which (perhaps) some of the professionals on here might take for granted.

So if they do, can I suggest:
Seat adjustment. intuitive and easy to operate controls
Ventilation. simple and intuitive control
heating (same)
Glare control. Quickly accessible and intuitive control of blinds (or window opacity). Cab design which does NOT reflect low sun into my eyes.
Lighting. dimable cab lighting to enable reading my notes AND seeing the road ahead in day, night, fog and tunnel.
Access. Easy access to door control and easy exit.
Welfare. Purpose built provision for driver to easily access drink, snack, first aid, pen & paper.
Noise control. insulation from wind noise etc. (which can contribute to stress)
And I'll say it again - seating control. A Driver may be obliged to remain in a cab of a train that isn't moving for extended periods, or, in the same seat, to be under tense stress and anxiety, or calm and unstimulated (at risk of tiredness) but requireing vigilance. The seat must support each form of posture and never contribute to any distracting discomfort.

(I'll bow out now, and let the professionals continue this thread!)

 

[driver9000]

The TPWS unit is considered a 'primary control' under the railway group standards. It is used to indicate to the driver that TPWS has made a brake application with a red flashing lamp (also lights when AWS stops the train), a fault or isolation with a yellow flashing lamp and a 'Trainstop override' button to enable to the driver to pass a signal at danger when authorised without the trainstop stopping the train.

Id be very suprised to see the TPWS unit on the secondmans side as the trainstop override only gives a few seconds to pass over the track equipment, normally on a 15x unit the temporary isolation switch is located on the secondmans side and the TPWS indicator is on the drivers side in easy view/reach.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A data recoder input keypad should be included under 'secondary controls' and although mandatory it doesnt need to be immediately in the drivers reach as it would only be used for the driver to log on when taking charge of a train. The OTDR is often incorporated into the TMS on new locos/units which would be in reach of the driver to enable him to monitor the trains status and respond to any alerts it may give. The TMS on the trains I drive is on the left wall of the drivers side

 

[RPM]

I pretty much agree with your list, with the addition of the TPWS panel in the main controls list as has previously been pointed out.

I would suggest the cab internal light switch needs to be within easy reach as does the notice board for your schedule card and it's associated light.

I would also add a clock to the secondary controls list.

I'd also add that any warning lights and illuminated gauges need to both dimmable and out of the driver's direct line of site or they will cause problems when night driving.


RPM
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rpmarks/3246204296/

 

[Vulcan]

Thanks everyone with your continuing assistance, it is very much appreciated. TPWS panel, clock, data recorder input keypad and an immuminated clipboard for notes / timetables / whatever have been added.

The pictures are especially useful, If anyone has some spare time around their train and wouldn't mind, some photographs of all these controls would be really helpfull.

Thanks again,

 

[Burkitt]

An idea that might be of use - have a go driving a train in BVE. It'll give you some idea of how often you need to look at each display and where they are in various real loco cabs. Obviously no substitute for the knowledge of real drivers, but a bit of your own experience can't hurt.

 

[Vulcan]

an idea that might be of use - have a go driving a train in bve. It'll give you some idea of how often you need to look at each display and where they are in various real loco cabs. Obviously no substitute for the knowledge of real drivers, but a bit of your own experience can't hurt.

bve??

 

[ralphchadkirk]

bve??

It's a train simulation.

I shall try to get some photos on Sunday, but I can't promise anything.

 

[vitesse]

Id be very suprised to see the TPWS unit on the secondmans side as the trainstop override only gives a few seconds to pass over the track equipment, normally on a 15x unit the temporary isolation switch is located on the secondmans side and the TPWS indicator is on the drivers side in easy view/reach.

Trust me, on our 150's on the secondmans side, as to hit the override you have to press it, then dash back to the chair and open it up and just hope you pass over the TSS before it times out

Unfortunately, this photo doesnt show where it is, just where it isnt:

 

[driver9000]

On our 150/1s the TPWS lamp unit is on top of the switch/AWS tower meaning you have to stand to operate the override. I found a photo on fotopix of 150131 (a LO set) which only shows the temporary isolation switch and OTDR, but it doesnt show the whole secondmans sidewall....

http://37518.fotopic.net/p60422530.html

Looks like your cabs have been painted, ours are still drab grey and tape

As an edit, 950001, the Network Rail 150 track recorder has its TPWS next to the speedo

 

[RPM]

I've got quite a few cab shots on my Fotopic site here:
http://anoraksia.ukgeeks.co.uk/c89553.html

Also an annotated class 168/1 cab on my Flickr photostream:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rpmarks/2851378601/

Hope this helps.

 

[Vulcan]

Thats very useful, I've actually come accross your fotopic site before. The annotated 168 cab pic will also be very useful

 

[vitesse]

Driver9000

It's just out of the top of your picture, above the OTDR

 

[robby p]

Anyone forget about the DRA??? Shame on all your drivers out there!

 

[gregh]

Anyone forget about the DRA??? Shame on all your drivers out there!

Freight locomotives aren't fitted with DRA equipment. Or, to be more precise, there is no requirement to fit freight locomotives with DRA equipment.

 

[Vulcan]

what is DRA equipment?

and also, can anone get me the dimesions of a class 66 cab? Mainly the length of rear bulkead to windcreens, I can work the rest out. I know this is a long shot, but it would be helpful. Alternatively, does anyone know where theres a scale GA drawing of a 66 on the internet?

 

[Vulcan]

Would everybody agree with this specification?

 

[90019]

what is DRA equipment?

I think it stands for Driver Reminder Appliance and deactivates the throttle. Could be wrong though.

 

[gregh]

Dave, the distance between the rear bulkhead and the windscreens is different in the two cabs on a class 66 - it is much less at the cooler group end (no.2 end) than it is at the clean air end (no.1 end).

Drop me a pm and i may be able to help you out with some bits and pieces on that.

re: your design spec, i think you've tried to cover both units and locos with one spec, and whilst cab construction, crash worthiness, environmental issues, etc., are much the same, the dials you'll find in each are not. Your spec seems to lean towards a unit cab rather than a loco cab and i still don't think there is any need for a rev counter, oil pressure or engine temperature gauges - these just give the driver more data to get worried about!! That said, on both the class 66 and 70, this data is available, but only by going through various options on the loco computer - it isn't shown by default on any gauge or display. All locos have traditionally had a hot plate, units don't as unit drivers tend to be in their cabs for considerably shorter periods than those of us who work on locos. That said, the class 70 has neither a hot plate or a microwave. No loco has ever had a cool box or fridge to the best of my knowledge, not in the UK anyway. Other than those minor points, i think you're pretty close to the mark with your spec, and i'd be happy to spend some time fine-tuning it with you if you wish.