Questions about Thameslink

[Sad Sprinter]

1. Why are Great Northern services that stop at Hatfield not part of Thameslink?

2. Why does the full Thameslink route not run on weekends?

3. Although this has probably been explained before, what was the reason for running a Thameslink service to Rainham calling at all stations? It seems like virtually no one would use it to get to Central London.

4. Could an argument be made for ditching the Sutton Loop entirely and running Thameslink via Norbury/Crystal Palace as per the 1990 route? It seems that every Thameslink train I see to Sutton carts fresh air south of Blackfriars.

5. Would an improved access to the Bakerloo Line at the Elephant encourage more passengers for the West End to use Thameslink instead of going via Victoria?

Thank you.

 

[ComUtoR]

3. Although this has probably been explained before, what was the reason for running a Thameslink service to Rainham calling at all stations? It seems like virtually no one would use it to get to Central London.

They don't run 'all stations' and they are quite popular.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Okay they don't stop at Erith, Belvedere and Woolwich Dockyard but out of all the other stations it stops at surely thats not much of a difference?

 

[ComUtoR]

If they stopped all stations; those few but vital minutes destroy the path for other services. Not forgetting this service also runs the other side of the water. It also skips stops that side too.

 

[swt_passenger]

3. Although this has probably been explained before, what was the reason for running a Thameslink service to Rainham calling at all stations? It seems like virtually no one would use it to get to Central London...

The 24 tph service was designed around 8 tph through Elephant &Castle, and 16 tph through London Bridge. The latter cannot all be fitted through East Croydon, so 4 tph had to go somewhere else. The Bermondsey flyover was built to allow included a grade separated route towards the North Kent direction so they decided to use that for the problem services. AFAICT Rainham just lucked into a Thameslink service.

The exact figures might be slightly different, (there’s been so many different route maps around), but that’s a quick summary of the issue...

 

[Aictos]

They don't run 'all stations' and they are quite popular.

They’re semi fast from Luton to London but for some reason are all stops to Luton from London...

Must be a reason for it tho?

As to the Loop, yes it would be better for service reliability to keep them self contained as Blackfriars to Blackfriars but then you’re cutting off the direct links between TL North and South London so doubtful we see any change to them.

Am interested thought though is has it ever been discussed to divert the peak only SN services into Blackfriars instead of into Victoria and use the freed up paths into Victoria for other services?

As to the Thameslink, I would have personally preferred it if services were:

Welwyn GC to Sevenoaks/Horsham via Dorking and Luton to Rainham/Guildford via Sutton but I’m not the DfT.

 

[swt_passenger]

4. Could an argument be made for ditching the Sutton Loop entirely and running Thameslink via Norbury/Crystal Palace as per the 1990 route? It seems that every Thameslink train I see to Sutton carts fresh air south of Blackfriars...

Definitely, yes. For a long time the Thameslink programme assumed the Wimbledon/Sutton loop would not be part of the eventual network, and would run independently to/from Blackfriars, probably as a “Southern service”. The entire Blackfriars rebuild was done with this end state in mind. Political pressure led to the loop being retained with T/L, with significant knock on changes. As has been discussed numerous times before.

 

[Ianno87]

2. Basically recovery from the driver training issues from May 2018. A semi-proper service will be introduced later this month.

 

[700007]

1. Why are Great Northern services that stop at Hatfield not part of Thameslink?

2. Why does the full Thameslink route not run on weekends?

3. Although this has probably been explained before, what was the reason for running a Thameslink service to Rainham calling at all stations? It seems like virtually no one would use it to get to Central London.

4. Could an argument be made for ditching the Sutton Loop entirely and running Thameslink via Norbury/Crystal Palace as per the 1990 route? It seems that every Thameslink train I see to Sutton carts fresh air south of Blackfriars.

5. Would an improved access to the Bakerloo Line at the Elephant encourage more passengers for the West End to use Thameslink instead of going via Victoria?

Thank you.

1) The ones that currently operate between Cambridge North and London Kings Cross are part of, and branded as, ThamesLink. I may be right in believing it is this December or next May that the service will be diverted to London St. Pancras International and then sent to Maidstone East Monday to Saturday with peak time extensions to Ashford International. The services to Moorgate are not ThamesLink because they don't go through the ThamesLink core. They are operated 'independently' from the rest of the GTR network with their own dedicated fleet and route.

2) Long story short you may say it was the incompetence of GTR / Network Rail / DfT* that has caused this as a result of everything that happened last May. The long term is supposed to see majority of trains from the GN side going through the core. Starting from 19th May, the Cambridge to Brighton service should be the first train to run through the core on weekends 2tph and on Sundays 1tph to Gatwick Airport via Redhill.

Things like the Peterborough to Horsham weekend service will come later.

3) To maximise capacity at a lot of inner London stations as part of the new ThamesLink programme offering where several houses are being built. You can probably appreciate the fact it is slower but it will also compliment other infrastructure projects such as the rebuilding of London Bridge and Elizabeth line.

4) That argument was indeed made prior to last year's timetable being made with the Sutton Loop services being canned at London Blackfriars. However some angry politicians opposed this and forced the idea that they must continue to run a through service.

5) Indeed and I think there is currently a motive to do this when the Northern line gets increased capacity come 2021 on the Bank branch, the Battersea extension opened and the Elephant & Castle shopping centre redeveloped.

 

[700007]

Re: the Sutton Loop, could a compromise not be reached to operate the services differently. Why not have two trains an hour starting and terminating at Wimbledon and run via Tooting to St. Alban's City?

Then transfer the Wimbledon - Sutton - Mitcham - London service to Southern or South Western Railway to operate half hourly through to an appropriate terminus whether it be London Blackfriars, London Victoria or London Bridge. It would free up two paths through the core which would be better used on other ThamesLink services like a half hourly Luton to Three Bridges stopping service that I honestly think would do really well.

 

[43074]

Re: the Sutton Loop, could a compromise not be reached to operate the services differently. Why not have two trains an hour starting and terminating at Wimbledon and run via Tooting to St. Alban's City?

Then transfer the Wimbledon - Sutton - Mitcham - London service to Southern or South Western Railway to operate half hourly through to an appropriate terminus whether it be London Blackfriars, London Victoria or London Bridge. It would free up two paths through the core which would be better used on other ThamesLink services like a half hourly Luton to Three Bridges stopping service that I honestly think would do really well.

What does this contribute that doesn't already exist and why do you think it would do well?

 

[Aictos]

Re: the Sutton Loop, could a compromise not be reached to operate the services differently. Why not have two trains an hour starting and terminating at Wimbledon and run via Tooting to St. Alban's City?

Then transfer the Wimbledon - Sutton - Mitcham - London service to Southern or South Western Railway to operate half hourly through to an appropriate terminus whether it be London Blackfriars, London Victoria or London Bridge. It would free up two paths through the core which would be better used on other ThamesLink services like a half hourly Luton to Three Bridges stopping service that I honestly think would do really well.

Bring back the former Luton to Guildford service instead of a Three Bridges service as Luton has plenty of services to Three Bridges both direct and a simple same platform interchange at any TL Core station.

 

[700007]

What does this contribute that doesn't already exist and why do you think it would do well?

Simply a suggestion.

It’s having a local service that would quickly and easily link the likes of North London with South London quickly particularly with house construction taking off in the Brent Cross area, demand for Cricklewood (and subsequently Brent Cross South when that takes off) will go through the roof.

It also provides a direct link to places such as Croydon, which is soon to become a London leisure destination in its own right when Westfield opens. The link to large towns such as Redhill and also to Gatwick Airport provides additional connectivity and reduces the complexity of a passengers journey. It will also help relieve the Northern and Jubilee lines (around West Hampstead and London Bridge) coming into Central and South London which allows those two lines a bit of breathing room and allow for spare capacity to be freed.

It could even go Horsham, replacing the last leg of the Peterborough to Horsham service (means a reduction from 12 to 8 coaches, but other than Crawley and Horsham itself, the other stations aren't as overly busy and could probably cope for the time being). This could allow either the Peterborough service to be rerouted elsewhere or for 12 cars to be used to boost capacity where needed.

 

[Aictos]

Only thing is the existing services are more then enough, there isn’t any need for MORE services duplicating the route.

 

[AM9]

Simply a suggestion.

It’s having a local service that would quickly and easily link the likes of North London with South London quickly particularly with house construction taking off in the Brent Cross area, demand for Cricklewood (and subsequently Brent Cross South when that takes off) will go through the roof.

It is likely that if the Brent Cross station is built, it will be served by the intermediate stoppers. For those wanting to go to any station not stopped at, trains are passing through the core at 20tph, eventually to be 24tph, so with a same platform change, passengers from almost any TL north station to any TL south destination there is a very easy and quickchange available.

It also provides a direct link to places such as Croydon, which is soon to become a London leisure destination in its own right when Westfield opens. The link to large towns such as Redhill and also to Gatwick Airport provides additional connectivity and reduces the complexity of a passengers journey. It will also help relieve the Northern and Jubilee lines (around West Hampstead and London Bridge) coming into Central and South London which allows those two lines a bit of breathing room and allow for spare capacity to be freed.

It could even go Horsham, replacing the last leg of the Peterborough to Horsham service (means a reduction from 12 to 8 coaches, but other than Crawley and Horsham itself, the other stations aren't as overly busy and could probably cope for the time being). This could allow either the Peterborough service to be rerouted elsewhere or for 12 cars to be used to boost capacity where needed.

So where will the additional paths between Blackfriars and East Croydon come from. There are already 18 tph in the peak there. The Sutton slows allow four paths through the core to be used without adding to the London Bridge flow. Trains meandering via the Tulse Hill/Herne Hill/Cystal Palace labyrinth are too slow to attract all but the most reluctant of changers, as those who travelled south from Blackfriars during the worst of the London Brige rebuilding programme can attest.

 

[JonathanH]

It would free up two paths through the core which would be better used on other ThamesLink services like a half hourly Luton to Three Bridges stopping service that I honestly think would do really well.

8 car peak trains on the Thameslink to Croydon corridor don't work. It is bad enough with the ones that have to run because there aren't enough 12-car 700s. The work that GTR did with the timetable were all around matching train lengths to infrastructure constraints.

 

[700007]

8 car peak trains on the Thameslink to Croydon corridor don't work. It is bad enough with the ones that have to run because there aren't enough 12-car 700s. The work that GTR did with the timetable were all around matching train lengths to infrastructure constraints.

Yes but this would be in addition to the several 12-car trains an hour to Brighton, Gatwick and Horsham operated by Southern and ThamesLink. The 8-car would provide additional capacity and you have to remember that shorter trains regularly run into the Croydon area.

 

[AM9]

Yes but this would be in addition to the several 12-car trains an hour to Brighton, Gatwick and Horsham operated by Southern and ThamesLink. The 8-car would provide additional capacity and you have to remember that shorter trains regularly run into the Croydon area.

You can't have shorter trains running everywhere to everywhere else on premium paths on routes loaded to capacity. Which journeys are there with such volume that there is a case for running new services using these precious paths with just 2/3 full capacity?

 

[43074]

Yes but this would be in addition to the several 12-car trains an hour to Brighton, Gatwick and Horsham operated by Southern and ThamesLink. The 8-car would provide additional capacity and you have to remember that shorter trains regularly run into the Croydon area.

There's no capacity through the Windmill Bridge Junction/Croydon area for the extra services in the first place though...

 

[700007]

You can't have shorter trains running everywhere to everywhere else on premium paths on routes loaded to capacity. Which journeys are there with such volume that there is a case for running new services using these precious paths with just 2/3 full capacity?

Local stations such as New Cross Gate, Norwood Junction and Purley to Luton Airport.

All the MML South local stations to East Croydon and Gatwick Airport would fare well, especially with links to Brent Cross shopping centre.

Hendon is also home to Middlesex University London with students that would benefit from direct, fast links to places such as London Bridge and East Croydon for a day or evening out. New Cross Gate is also not far from Goldsmiths, University of London and would attract a healthy flow North of London Bridge.

Elstree Studios broadcasts a lot of London filmed TV shows with live audiences and staff from around the home counties, so having a direct train there proves useful.

Croydon and Brent Cross are London destinations in their own right.

Gatwick and Luton are two major airports that form the gateway to leaving London which are used by millions of people every year.

There is demand for this service and would be a good use of using two spare paths through the core, in my honest opinion.

What would you recommend then?

 

[700007]

There's no capacity through the Windmill Bridge Junction/Croydon area for the extra services in the first place though...

After the upgrade works there will be

 

[43074]

After the upgrade works there will be

I think you're forgetting that the lines either side of it are pretty busy too though. It doesn't contribute much more than the current Bedford to Gatwick/Brighton services, especially as 2 of those stop at West Hampstead which caters for the "North London" to Gatwick etc flows anyway.

 

[700007]

I think you're forgetting that the lines either side of it are pretty busy too though. It doesn't contribute much more than the current Bedford to Gatwick/Brighton services, especially as 2 of those stop at West Hampstead which caters for the "North London" to Gatwick etc flows anyway.

You could still say it contributes more than the Sutton service judging by their mostly light usage particularly off peak...

 

[JonathanH]

GTR have run 8-car trains on the 1721 and 1751 services from London Bridge to Redhill and Gatwick Airport since last May - on paper this looks sensible - there is a 1717 and 1747 from London Bridge to Caterham and Tattenham Corner which stop at East Croydon and Purley running straight in front and the only stations afterwards are those on the Redhill line with a 1730 and 1800 following. There are many other 12-car services to East Croydon.

In practice, these trains have been impossible to board at London Bridge. People do not look at a list of services and say, I won't get the 8-car service, they expect to travel at the time they want to travel.

especially with links to Brent Cross shopping centre.

What? There isn't yet a station that is convenient for Brent Cross and even if there were, much as it is a useful shopping centre for people in North London, it isn't really a destination for people from other parts of London.

Changing at stations in the Thameslink core really isn't a problem.

 

[30907]

Wimbledon has just the one reversible platform, so terminating trains there (on top of 4tph through) would be an unnecessary complication.

 

[AM9]

You could still say it contributes more than the Sutton service judging by their mostly light usage particularly off peak...

The Sutton services are the cornerstone of services to/from the lesser stations north of the core, both in the peak and between. I repeat this again, You can't have shorter trains running everywhere to everywhere else on premium paths on routes loaded to capacity. Thameslink provides one of the most intense main line rail services in the country, almost as frequent as many tube services, but with the addition of travel to many more destinations at greater distances from central London. As a consequence, the four core stations benefit from same platform interchange to the Sutton loop, several different patterns on the BML, the East Grinstead line, Horsham, Littlehampton, Rainham and Orpington. Northbound, direct trains are run to MML slow to St Albans, intermediate/fast to Bedford, WGC, Peterborough and Cambridge. A single change in the core is perfectly reasonable, all of the core stations are covered and waiting times normally minimal. Change at the first station in the core and seats are usually guaranteed, often in the peak. The additional flows from NXG etc. as you suggest would be a drop in the ocean of traffic already carried. The potential disruption from an already fully loaded route would destabilise the whole carefully worked-out operation of the TL, Southern, Southeastern, MML and ECML networks. All that for a few passengers who you seem to think must go from whatever origin to whatever destination that they choose without leaving their initial train.

 

[Chiltern006]

Does anyone know if the SEV-WGC service will only run in the peak and if the CBG-AFK service will stop at St Mary Cray and any stations between St Mary Cray and London Bridge

 

[swt_passenger]

Does anyone know if the SEV-WGC service will only run in the peak and if the CBG-AFK service will stop at St Mary Cray and any stations between St Mary Cray and London Bridge

Sevenoaks to Welwyn GC is peak only, runs to Blackfriars bays off-peak.

The Cambridge - Maidstone route was defined as:

Thameslink Mainline Route TL7: Cambridge (stopping) – Stevenage – Central London (via London Bridge) – Swanley – Maidstone East – (Ashford International) Serving: Cambridge, Foxton, Shepreth, Meldreth, Royston, Ashwell & Morden, Baldock, Letchworth Garden City, Hitchin, Stevenage, Knebworth, Welwyn North, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield, Potters Bar, Finsbury Park, London St Pancras International, Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Bridge, Swanley, Otford, Borough Green & Wrotham, West Malling and Maidstone East. A limited number of trains will be extended between Maidstone East and Ashford International serving Bearsted only.

Ashford is only an extension at start and end of service, Maidstone is the normal end point.

 

[bionic]

There are RLU and FLU boards at stations like Grove Park and Chislehurst. They've been there for a few years but I've never heard of any official plans to stop GTR trains there. It's odd because you would have thought stations on that line would go to TFL rather than GTR when they split the SE franchise up.

 

[ComUtoR]

There are RLU and FLU boards at stations like Grove Park and Chislehurst.

700s are route certified for all kent routes. If they were diverted that way, they would need the ability to stop. There are still issues with passenger stops at some stations and there are restrictions but this is because of ramps etc. They have basically done half a job. They have removed some of the FLU boards down the Greenwich and North Kent.

Whatever the master plan is; they have ballsed it up. IIRC they are still restricted from turning back at Elephant :/