Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)

[LNW-GW Joint]

Some people really are up with the fairies, aren't they? Fill in the Ship Canal? Good lord.

The canal is on the wrong side of the Mersey west of Warrington.
It's a major waterway/drainage channel in its own right - the combined rivers Irwell and Mersey.
What do we do with that? Put it in a culvert?
There are several strategic weirs/sluices combined with the locks at places like Irlam and Latchford which regulate the river/canal system.
Peel will have something to say about impacting their plans for Port Salford and elsewhere on the canal route.
It dumps you in the just completely rebuilt canal-side section of Manchester/Salford, with no easy escape route eastwards towards the Pennines.

 

[6Gman]

Rail establishment? Who are they?

People who disagree with PR1Berske

Perhaps he'd be happier if Parliament was in Preston; the DfT in Plymouth; the Exchequer in Norwich; and Network Rail in Milton Keynes.

Oh hang on ...

 

[Glenn1969]

What I read was something different. That they should abandon HS2 and spend the money on building a network of high speed lines in special tunnels alongside canals using locks too. Some people do have daft ideas don't they- I think the idea behind that one was that the network would benefit the whole of the country

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just listening to Any Questions debating HS2 - or rather, "Should HS2 Be Scrapped".
They voted pretty much 4-0 to scrap it (vanity project, George Osborne's pet project, waste of money for 20 minutes saving, think what you could do with £56bn).
The general view was the money should be spent on improving local/regional transport, especially in the north.
The debate took place in Berkhamsted, on the WCML.
None of the panel said anything in support of HS2's ability to improve local services into Euston by removing the fast services.
The Greens called it obscene.
They are expecting Theresa May's successor to cancel it after the upcoming spending review by Liz Truss.
The Labour rep at least said it depended on how far construction had got.
This seems to be the current climate of opinion on HS2.

 

[Aictos]

Cancelling HS2 doesn’t do anything to address the capacity issues though and it doesn’t mean the money will be used for railway projects either, simply it’s use the money for what it’s ring fenced for or lose it,

And yes there is plenty of investment in existing rail networks before anyone says otherwise!

 

[Adsy125]

This seems to be the current climate of opinion on HS2.

Forming an opinion based on half truths and flat out lies, remind you of anything else in UK Politics recently...

 

[PR1Berske]

Forming an opinion based on half truths and flat out lies, remind you of anything else in UK Politics recently...

Truss may well look very good indeed in the eyes of leadership voters if she is seen as the woman who ended a project with a dubious reputation and increasing vocal opposition. That sort of thing sells well amongst the Tory faithful. No Tory likes being directly linked to a massively increasing cost if ending it makes them appear fiscally responsible.

 

[6Gman]

Truss may well look very good indeed in the eyes of leadership voters if she is seen as the woman who ended a project with a dubious reputation and increasing vocal opposition. That sort of thing sells well amongst the Tory faithful. No Tory likes being directly linked to a massively increasing cost if ending it makes them appear fiscally responsible.

Except that Truss is extremely unlikely to be one of the candidates put to the membership. (They won't - surely - make the Leadsom mistake twice?)

 

[PR1Berske]

Except that Truss is extremely unlikely to be one of the candidates put to the membership. (They won't - surely - make the Leadsom mistake twice?)

True, but you and I both know how this might pan our. Truss shows herself to be the fiscally sensible Conservative who stops a project from going over-budget, is celebrated as the kind of purse-guarding conservative the country needs right now, gets herself the "second hand (wo)man" role for a potential candidate who picks up her kudos points.

Cancelling HS2 is exactly the sort of thing which would go down well in those Brexit-y areas which are abandoning the Conservative Party.

 

[Aictos]

And yet in the process screws over the country by not having any long term plans to deal with the capacity issues that have been proven that HS2 will help with.

We can't just do nothing and before people roll out that old chestnut about cancelling HS2 will provide funds for the existing network and they do know who they are, it's already been proven that the existing railway is undergoing much investment at the moment regardless of HS2.

If you want to save money then cancel Trident instead but that will never happen or insist on the NHS actually be able to stop being a bottomless pit of funds which will never happen etc...

HS2 ought to go ahead as should Northern Powerhouse as well as electrification of more of the network and it would take a very stupid idiot to cancel the lot!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cancelling HS2 is exactly the sort of thing which would go down well in those Brexit-y areas which are abandoning the Conservative Party.

It would certainly work as a sop to the Chilterns, which slightly neglects the south WCML running through part of the Chilterns and blending in very nicely indeed.

If it is canned, I hope they still do the Euston works, more platforms and a better concourse are still needed.

 

[Adsy125]

True, but you and I both know how this might pan our. Truss shows herself to be the fiscally sensible Conservative who stops a project from going over-budget, is celebrated as the kind of purse-guarding conservative the country needs right now, gets herself the "second hand (wo)man" role for a potential candidate who picks up her kudos points.

Cancelling HS2 is exactly the sort of thing which would go down well in those Brexit-y areas which are abandoning the Conservative Party.

As much as some people on here think though, to most people HS2 isn’t a big issue in their life, they’d rather Brexit was sorted, the NHS was improved, there commute wasn’t so busy etc. I do doubt cancelling HS2 will be a massive vote winner, and then the problem of the WCML’s capacity still exists, which whoever cancels it will likely be reminded of for the rest of their career, if it continues to get busier.

 

[MarkyT]

As much as some people on here think though, to most people HS2 isn’t a big issue in their life, they’d rather Brexit was sorted, the NHS was improved, there commute wasn’t so busy etc. I do doubt cancelling HS2 will be a massive vote winner, and then the problem of the WCML’s capacity still exists, which whoever cancels it will likely be reminded of for the rest of their career, if it continues to get busier.

There is no major groundswell of support for it either though, and a lot of ordinary people have been persuaded to think of it as a 'waste of money' through the 'elitist' tag, including a lot of railway people who really should know better (IMHO). I fear if it is cancelled we will never get any more new high speed railway in UK. The Green Party position is totally barking. They want to drastically reduce or eliminate domestic flights, but are opposed to the one realistic measure that could help to achieve that. To be frank though, PR for the scheme has been shocking. First the emphasis was on speed exclusively, without much explaining the consequent possibilities for using the released capacity for improving other services. Ordinary people don't understand rail operations, they can't grasp that fast trains can't just overtake slower trains on demand anywhere en route like a motorway. Now capacity is being claimed as a benefit, but of course now the antis are saying promoters are just 'changing the story'. The danger we have here is that there are plenty of climate change denying populists on the right who would be very happy to see the end of HS2 as a first step in the planned further destruction of the industry as a whole. Some still see Beeching as unfinished business. Many are in the pocket of the air and oil interests who are desperately trying to undermine efforts to rekindle passenger rail service in the USA. After HS2 having been a kind of cross-party consensus issue for so many years, the end of politics as we know it could result in the project becoming a political football.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Liz Truss (Chief Sec to the Treasury) is in the same position as John Major was before he shot to fame as Foreign Sec and then PM after Thatcher.
It's a very powerful position if she gets the review right (in the eyes of the party).
That's assuming the Tories are in any fit state to govern when the time comes.
The experience of Crossrail, unfinished and with costs spiralling, is also weighing heavily on HS2, even if it is a totally different project.

 

[EM2]

When people decry HS2 as a 'vanity project', whose vanity are they referring to?

 

[Glenn1969]

The wisdom of spending billions on a new line that might be open when I'm 65 (I'm 49 now) when in their eyes the money could be spent on things like Castlefield, Transpennine upgrade and the like that are needed now

 

[Esker-pades]

The wisdom of spending billions on a new line that might be open when I'm 65 (I'm 49 now) when in their eyes the money could be spent on things like Castlefield, Transpennine upgrade and the like that are needed now

There is no evidence that any money for HS2 would be spent on any other railway projects if HS2 was to be cancelled.

Secondly, the implication of the comment is that HS2 isn't needed. It is.

The existence of HS2 does not preclude the projects you have mentioned.

 

[Glenn1969]

I'm pro HS2. I just think the capacity is needed now on the existing lines not in 15 years time when I might not be around to take advantage of it

 

[Esker-pades]

I'm pro HS2. I just think the capacity is needed now on the existing lines not in 15 years time when I might not be around to take advantage of it

Sorry, I misunderstood.

I agree the upgrades to existing lines are required now. I'm not sure why the point was made on the HS2 thread though.

 

[Glenn1969]

Because with this Government it seems to be you can have one or the other. At least from a Northern point of view that is what it looks like- the only hope of Castlefield being done properly is alongside HS2/HS3/NPR

 

[Railwaysceptic]

When people decry HS2 as a 'vanity project', whose vanity are they referring to?

The vanity of those adults with the mental age of children who "argue" that we must have high speed railways because other European countries have them, and we don't want to be left behind.

 

[jon0844]

Should we not build any new railways? Any new line is going to impact someone.

When did we suddenly decide to stop trying to better ourselves? To build for tomorrow and future generations? To build things to modern standards rather than keep patching up old things?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

There is no evidence that any money for HS2 would be spent on any other railway projects if HS2 was to be cancelled.

Of course there is no evidence that tax-payers' money would spent on other railway projects if HS2 were cancelled. Why not? Because the one group of people who could force through the necessary change - Members Of Parliament - have not demanded that money be redirected towards other railway projects. Be in no doubt: if they did - correction: if they had - the situation might well be different.

 

[Sceptre]

The vanity of those adults with the mental age of children who "argue" that we must have high speed railways because other European countries have them, and we don't want to be left behind.

By that argument, motorways are vanity projects writ large, given most motorways since the original autobahns have been created by governments who wanted what Germany had. That's not even getting into the wide-scale corruption involved in the director of a large road-building company closing railways and approving new motorways (to be built by his own firm, naturally).

Of course there is no evidence that tax-payers' money would spent on other railway projects if HS2 were cancelled. Why not? Because the one group of people who could force through the necessary change - Members Of Parliament - have not demanded that money be redirected towards other railway projects. Be in no doubt: if they did - correction: if they had - the situation might well be different.

I've got this one wacky proposal that is environmentally sound and could free up about £40 billion to pump into the railway network: end the fuel duty freeze.

It's ridiculous that in nominal terms, fuel duty is less now than it was in 2010, even though petrol road vehicles are by far the biggest polluters in Britain.

 

[squizzler]

I think the negative reporting is largely the result of the British establishment, particularly the media, being fairly disconnected from the country as a whole and based in London. One might be forgiven for imagining a resentment towards the very idea that the rest of the country might get nice things such as new railways that the capital take for granted.

Worst of all is the Guardian (mentioned in this thread) which used to be based in Manchester and once might take a more provincial (in a good way) view. Now it is the London based paper of record of the chattering classes and outdoes all others for its anti HS2 editorialising.

The irony is that, with a terminal at Euston, I would assume that London would stand to benefit as much as (or no worse than) the rest of the country.

 

[The Ham]

I've got this one wacky proposal that is environmentally sound and could free up about £40 billion to pump into the railway network: end the fuel duty freeze.

It's ridiculous that in nominal terms, fuel duty is less now than it was in 2010, even though petrol road vehicles are by far the biggest polluters in Britain.

But only that, but the big "problem" of what do rural areas do who don't have good public transport is now solved in that they can have electric cars.

Put in place a policy which invests 15% in electrical charging points (with a focus on subsidys for rural charging points) and discounts for those who live and work in rural locations, invest 20% in buses, invest 15% in cycle routes (with a focus on getting children to school and everyone to train stations) and finally invest 50% in rail (with a focus on small projects which make better use of the existing network and/or create new journey opportunitys and/or electrification which reduces the most diesels and/or helps freight).

In doing so there would be the start of a change in how people travel around and can be seen as the first step towards the goal of being carbon neutral by 2050.

To help with the launch the government could announce that they are investing an extra amount of money to kick-start projects and that increase, back to where it should be, would be phased in over a 5 year period starting in 6 months time, and then increasing every 3 months.

In doing so it would mean that a lot of people would be able to plan for it (i.e. they would have chance to replace their vehicles within the normal replacement cycle) whilst also allowing for improvement schemes to be started off

 

[Ianno87]

The irony is that, with a terminal at Euston, I would assume that London would stand to benefit as much as (or no worse than) the rest of the country.

Indeed. One of the potential key benefits of HS2 is the regeneration of the area of Camden around HS2, even if its residents never go near an HS2 train.

 

[EM2]

The vanity of those adults with the mental age of children who "argue" that we must have high speed railways because other European countries have them, and we don't want to be left behind.

By that argument, we would never improve anything.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because with this Government it seems to be you can have one or the other. At least from a Northern point of view that is what it looks like- the only hope of Castlefield being done properly is alongside HS2/HS3/NPR

It won't be one or another. It'll be HS2 or nowt. To think the money will instead go into a Manchester S-Bahn (for instance), much as I support one of those, is naive.

 

[Meerkat]

It is a politician’s vanity project - they want a shiny fast train like all the other leaders’ countries have.
I would have spent the money on a lorry shuttle (so should be able to take double stacked containers) from the Tunnel to Birmingham and the North West.