Future Of Caledonian Sleeper Class 86s/87

[mpthomson]

aren't the owned by the AC locomotive group? Why would they sell their operational preserved locos? Does that not negate the point of their existence? (unless they get them back afterwards)

I'm sure I've seen somewhere that the priority is the restoration of the 89, and if they can be leased elsewhere to provide funds for that (as is currently happening) then it's a distinct possibility that it may happen.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One possible domestic use (subject to operating requirements and an affordable price) would be hauling the Night Riviera as far as Bristol (would mean a loco swap there and re-routing to run that way if it doesn't do so any longer). A bit crayon-y I understand, but would at least keep them here and reduce diesels under the wires.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm sure I've seen somewhere that the priority is the restoration of the 89, and if they can be leased elsewhere to provide funds for that (as is currently happening) then it's a distinct possibility that it may happen.

A lease makes sense - the money earned can be used to support the rest of their collection

One possible domestic use (subject to operating requirements and an affordable price) would be hauling the Night Riviera as far as Bristol (would mean a loco swap there and re-routing to run that way if it doesn't do so any longer). A bit crayon-y I understand, but would at least keep them here and reduce diesels under the wires.

not going to happen.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A lease makes sense - the money earned can be used to support the rest of their collection



not going to happen.

Didn't say it would: I included several caveats in my post, it was simply a suggestion. If BR was still a thing, I'd put money on the Night Riviera switching to electric though.

One slight positive of it would be the return of the Bristol call, which was always useful for getting back to Taunton after concerts in Brizzle. It probably should happen, but as always money talks.

 

[SideshowBob]

Seems odd that it doesn't call there anyway, imo. In the same vein, I can't understand why CS don't call at Manchester Picc either - you'd imagine major centres of population would be where the greatest demand would be found, especially out of season, but there we are.

But to stay on topic - could these locos not be leased to a freight operator? Pretty sure FL use 86s at least, don't they?

 

[Suraggu]

Seems odd that it doesn't call there anyway, imo. In the same vein, I can't understand why CS don't call at Manchester Picc either - you'd imagine major centres of population would be where the greatest demand would be found, especially out of season, but there we are.

But to stay on topic - could these locos not be leased to a freight operator? Pretty sure FL use 86s at least, don't they?

FL cannot make up their minds if they want to keep the 86s and spend the cash on overhauling them or ditch them to take on the ex GA class 90s which all bar two will be available in the near future.

The bean counters truly run the locomotive division unfortunately, hence the class 70 debacle.

 

[nat67]

Use 86101 & 87002 on charters. Keep them at Crewe Diesel. Just hope someone has some sense.

 

[Suraggu]

Use 86101 & 87002 on charters. Keep them at Crewe Diesel. Just hope someone has some sense.

Charters will not cover there operating costs.

 

[43096]

Didn't say it would: I included several caveats in my post, it was simply a suggestion. If BR was still a thing, I'd put money on the Night Riviera switching to electric though.

One slight positive of it would be the return of the Bristol call, which was always useful for getting back to Taunton after concerts in Brizzle. It probably should happen, but as always money talks.

The lack of a Bristol stop gives GWR complete flexibility with routing to avoid engineering work: via Bath or Hullavington or the Desert and/or the Mule etc etc.

 

[captainbigun]

Charters will not cover there operating costs.

This.

You cannot maintain, insure and run an electric loco unless it is working regularly. We’re talking a large six figure sum annually and something approaching a seven figure sum when overhaul/wheels/bogies are due.

The odd charter doesn’t tickle the surface.

 

[SideshowBob]

FL cannot make up their minds if they want to keep the 86s and spend the cash on overhauling them or ditch them to take on the ex GA class 90s which all bar two will be available in the near future.

The bean counters truly run the locomotive division unfortunately, hence the class 70 debacle.

Well, if it's cheaper and easier to use a different class of loco, then they should do that. Nostalgia's all very well but these are old machines and if the numbers don't work, then they don't work, unfortunately! It's not as though they've been underused, after all.

If nobody would want these ex-CS examples and indeed FL are considering divesting themselves of the ones they've already got, then I suspect it's curtains for them.

 

[Suraggu]

Well, if it's cheaper and easier to use a different class of loco, then they should do that. Nostalgia's all very well but these are old machines and if the numbers don't work, then they don't work, unfortunately! It's not as though they've been underused, after all.

If nobody would want these ex-CS examples and indeed FL are considering divesting themselves of the ones they've already got, then I suspect it's curtains for them.

Price between the two is similar.

 

[SideshowBob]

Price between the two is similar.

So what's the issue?

 

[EE Andy b1]

So how many railtours/excursions does 86259 do over a year. That seems to be able to pay it's way (not that I know the costs).
Surely a pool of 4 or 5 (with Class 89) AC electric loco's would be a good asset if all charter companies chipped in for costs and shared use.

 

[captainbigun]

Where are all these charters coming from?

86259 is a personal play thing and once it expires it’ll be done as there’s no spares.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Where are all these charters coming from?

86259 is a personal play thing and once it expires it’ll be done as there’s no spares.

Who knows? But the assets are there for now and could be used, if not then abroad as has been said or into preservation or worse of all, scrap.

 

[DBS92042]

I suppose they will just go back to Willesden Junction or Barrow Hill once they are done with the Caledonian Sleeper and sit around unless leased out

 

[captainbigun]

They definitely won’t be going back to Willesden!

 

[DarloRich]

I suppose they will just go back to Willesden Junction or Barrow Hill once they are done with the Caledonian Sleeper and sit around unless leased out

Willesden is bursting. They arent going there! That is why the blue 86 lives in a siding at rugby!

 

[DarloRich]

This.

You cannot maintain, insure and run an electric loco unless it is working regularly. We’re talking a large six figure sum annually and something approaching a seven figure sum when overhaul/wheels/bogies are due.

The odd charter doesn’t tickle the surface.

Plus finding the skills to do the overhaul to the required standards and produce what are often one off replacement parts for these older locomotives

 

[captainbigun]

Plus finding the skills to do the overhaul to the required standards and produce what are often one off replacement parts for these older locomotives

Possibly counter intuitive, but that’s far less of a problem than with something like 90/91 which are becoming increasingly difficult to support.

 

[DarloRich]

Possibly counter intuitive, but that’s far less of a problem than with something like 90/91 which are becoming increasingly difficult to support.

Fair enough - I have some experience of "historic" diesel loco overhauls but nothing electric

 

[DBS92042]

I don't suppose GBRF have any plans to take on the locos and use them like they are with 50007 and 50049? Could this be an option or is the maintenance cost too high and the fact they are electric restrict their use?

 

[43096]

I don't suppose GBRF have any plans to take on the locos and use them like they are with 50007 and 50049? Could this be an option or is the maintenance cost too high and the fact they are electric restrict their use?

Errrrrrrr. It is GBRf off-leasing them that has started the speculation! If they had a use for them they wouldn’t be handing them back.

 

[DBS92042]

I wasn't sure if it was just the Caledonian Sleeper part of GBRF off leasing them or whether it GBRF as a whole

 

[Suraggu]

Errrrrrrr. It is GBRf off-leasing them that has started the speculation! If they had a use for them they wouldn’t be handing them back.

I am surprised to an extent that GB are sending them off lease. Not because of the Cs duties coming to an end but they have been expanding rapidly since the drop in coal and have been biting companies hands off for traction.

Admittidly 3 locomotives are 'unique in there own ways to keep running on the mainline cannot be cheap.

 

[EE Andy b1]

I think the traction that GBrf now want and need are diesels for future infrastructure work (HS2 mainly) as well as there other work and AC electrics just don't fit the plan.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Electric Traction Limited - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_Traction_Limited and http://wp.electric-traction.co.uk/

Thanks.

You cannot maintain, insure and run an electric loco unless it is working regularly. We’re talking a large six figure sum annually and something approaching a seven figure sum when overhaul/wheels/bogies are due.

The odd charter doesn’t tickle the surface.

Then what are the ACLG intending to do with the class 89 when they've finished restoring it? Are they intending it to be a museum peice in which case that would seem to be the logical fate for the 87 and 86s as well (if they cannot be leased out to bring in funds for the restoration)?

Where are all these charters coming from?

Does the Northern Belle (and similar luxury tour trains) ever run wholy under-wires tours that would benifit from electric rather than diesel traction?

 

[mpthomson]

Thanks.

Then what are the ACLG intending to do with the class 89 when they've finished restoring it? Are they intending it to be a museum peice in which case that would seem to be the logical fate for the 87 and 86s as well (if they cannot be leased out to bring in funds for the restoration)?

There's a photo and min-article on another site that states that it's going to get mainline use next year if all goes to plan.

 

[childwallblues]

Errrrrrrr. It is GBRf off-leasing them that has started the speculation! If they had a use for them they wouldn’t be handing them back.

Dagenham to Garston cars?