LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

[Bletchleyite]

That’s Birmingham to London.

OK, third then. It still shares with Birmingham the two highest frequency InterCity rail routes in Europe (possibly outside Japan?)

 

[Bald Rick]

OK, third then. It still shares with Birmingham the two highest frequency InterCity rail routes in Europe (possibly outside Japan?)

How do you define IC rail route? There’s 3-4 tph from Köln to Frankfurt for example, but they mostly happen to go beyond these points. Then there’s London - Leicester!

In any event it is passenger numbers that matter, as that is what drives capacity and to a certain extent frequency. Birmingham to London is much higher than Manchester to London. Indeed AIUI the former is higher just in Virgin terms alone, let alone the LNR / Chiltern numbers.

 

[DavidGrain]

No additional road learning has been carried out, so Coventry and New Street Drivers dont sign further south than Northampton, and Northampton/Bletchley drivers don't sign any further north than New Street (that way at least) so crew changes at New Street will be the norm.

If Birmingham & Coventry drivers don't sign south of Northampton and Northhampton and Bletcheley drivers don't sign north of Northampton does that mean that crews alway have to change at Northampton? And who signs for the Crewe- Euston which currently takes the direct fast line?

 

[DavidGrain]

Birmingham Manchester is already served by both VT and XC so I don't see a third operator coming in.

 

[Ianno87]

If Birmingham & Coventry drivers don't sign south of Northampton and Northhampton and Bletcheley drivers don't sign north of Northampton does that mean that crews alway have to change at Northampton? And who signs for the Crewe- Euston which currently takes the direct fast line?

Certainly used to be Crewe drivers as far as MK, then another depot's driver takes over.

 

[driver_m]

No additional road learning has been carried out, so Coventry and New Street Drivers dont sign further south than Northampton, and Northampton/Bletchley drivers don't sign any further north than New Street (that way at least) so crew changes at New Street will be the norm.

Lots of potential for things to go wrong....8 car from Euston turns up and one or other crew is missing at New Street.....half the southbound service turns up with half delayed...do they send the four car and if so what do they do with the (now) spare other 4 cars?

There was also talk of "coupling on the move".....when the 2nd 4 car comes in and instead of stopping, opening doors, closing doors, coupling up and then reopening doors etc, it just came in and coupled straight onto the unit already there.......after stopping first to ensure a smooth coupling of course. The New Street passengers seem a bit dense at times, they see open doors and jump on, so stopping and coupling in the conventional sense (after opening doors) would be a nightmare. The flipside to that is that when the second half comes to a stand, and then starts moving again the passengers will think they've missed the stop and be pulling passcoms left right and centre!

We do that now on VT. Go straight into a unit without opening the doors. Standard practice now with one exception where we run around one at Chester. That one has its doors opened first. Plenty of announcements have ensured that by and large, the passengers have got used to what happens now.

 

[Silverlinky]

If Birmingham & Coventry drivers don't sign south of Northampton and Northhampton and Bletcheley drivers don't sign north of Northampton does that mean that crews alway have to change at Northampton? And who signs for the Crewe- Euston which currently takes the direct fast line?

No, Cov and New street drivers work some services to northampton and work back, bletchley and NN drivers currently work to new street, change ends and work back. There will be no changing ends as the units are continuing north from new street therefore they’ll have to look for their next train.
Crewe drivers only sign as far south as Rugby, the conductors go as far as MK.
Northampton drivers sign to Crewe but bletchley drivers don’t.

 

[Clarence Yard]

In which case, I do hope someone has had a good look at the train crew diagrams to make sure they haven’t been over optimised. If the changeover arrangements are too tight (which is a fear, having now found out who has been involved in this timetable), it will fall like a pack of cards.

Alternatively, the train crew reps can always put in for some Nike’s.

 

[pt_mad]

From london every hour (majority of the day)

1 tph london - crewe, through brum
1 tph london - liverpool through brum
1 tph london - rugeley through brum

Those are the 3 trains that go from euston through birmingham

But that doesn't account for two of those destinations being served by one train between Euston and New St which then splits off.

I thought people were saying the Liverpool and Rugeley is one 8 car train to Birmingham, then splitting off. So how does that explain 3tph Euston to Birmingham departures?

Another poster wrote that there will be 2tph Rugeley services from Euston with one splitting off from a Liverpool and the other tph from Euston being to Crewe via Birmingham?
I didn't think 2 trains per hour London to Rugeley was announced so doesn't sound quite right somehow?

 

[centraltrains]

But that doesn't account for two of those destinations being served by one train between Euston and New St which then splits off.

I thought people were saying the Liverpool and Rugeley is one 8 car train to Birmingham, then splitting off. So how does that explain 3tph Euston to Birmingham departures?

Another poster wrote that there will be 2tph Rugeley services from Euston with one splitting off from a Liverpool and the other tph from Euston being to Crewe via Birmingham?
I didn't think 2 trains per hour London to Rugeley was announced so doesn't sound quite right somehow?

Birmingham wise:
xx:15 is London - Crew via Stoke & Rugeley
xx:24 is London - Rugeley
xx:49 is London - Liverpool

In the reverse it is only one Rugeley - London, so maybe that's why it's not a big announcement? The printed timetable shows it https://www.westmidlandsrailway.co....XAGWnZV54EMY2Qa6tgyvAKxl_dSCWQMk/wm02_web.pdf

Wasn't the idea of the wmtrains franchise to make the services split able so that West Midlands Trains and London Northwestern Railway would become separate TOCs next time round?
Seems a bit concerning to have inter-working between so many LNR and WMR services, and still be able to meet this aim?

 

[pt_mad]

Birmingham wise:
xx:15 is London - Crew via Stoke & Rugeley
xx:24 is London - Rugeley
xx:49 is London - Crewe

In the reverse it is only one Rugeley - London, so maybe that's why it's not a big announcement? The printed timetable shows it https://www.westmidlandsrailway.co....XAGWnZV54EMY2Qa6tgyvAKxl_dSCWQMk/wm02_web.pdf

Wasn't the idea of the wmtrains franchise to make the services split able so that West Midlands Trains and London Northwestern Railway would become separate TOCs next time round?
Seems a bit concerning to have inter-working between so many LNR and WMR services, and still be able to meet this aim?

Where is the Liverpool departure there though? I've seen 3 different claims of which services work where and split where on this thread now!

 

[pt_mad]

What we really need is just a simple post which states:

Which trains work to Birmingham every hour as 8 coaches, and then which 4 coach set splits off and works on to where? There should be 3 separate departure times from Euston per hour. But with trains starting as 8 cars and splitting off at New St in some way.

Whether any of those trains work to Birmingham as 8 cars, with 4 going on and 4 working back to Euston with another set arriving from somewhere else?

Which trains arrive from where every hour at Birmingham and which ones couple together to form 8 cars to Euston? Again there should be 3 departure times per hour from Birmingham to Euston with combinations of sets if we can establish what these are?

And all this should add up to 3tph Euston to Birmingham diagrams, with splits from there.
3tph departing Birmingham for London, having arrived from different origins and coupling together in some combination?

 

[centraltrains]

Where is the Liverpool departure there though? I've seen 3 different claims of which services work where and split where on this thread now!

Whoops, complacent copying. Correcting..
afaik, the Euston - Brum timetable doesn't publish coach lengths, so apart from the split workings, it may be possible some assumptions of 4 cars are wrong unless anyone else knows otherwise? (I think there are a few 8 car peak services as is and don't know how they will be effected)

 

[pt_mad]

Whoops, complacent copying. Correcting..
afaik, the Euston - Brum timetable doesn't publish coach lengths, so apart from the split workings, it may be possible some assumptions of 4 cars are wrong unless anyone else knows otherwise? (I think there are a few 8 car peak services as is and don't know how they will be effected)

I *think* Bletchleyite may have said the new timetable nearly abolishes 4 car working on the South WCML. He may be able to give more detail though.

 

[driver_m]

By my reckoning. There are 10 moves in an hour involving the 3 services to Euston at New St. Used an hour period starting at 1240.

An incoming Liverpool at xx20 and an incoming Crewe at xx25 join up and go at xx33 to Euston.

A service arriving at xx13 comes in and splits and departs towards either end at the same time xx20 to Crewe and rugeley.

The best way to look at this is a very complex mix of Rugeley/Crewe/Liverpool runs

That’s a so far

5 class 9 services
3 class 1 services
2 class 2 services.
Trying to join the dots here. Basically up to London at xx14, xx33 and xx54.
Arrivals at xx40, xx01 and xx13. Give or take a minute or two.

 

[centraltrains]

Realising I probably won't be trusted after the last mess up, but according to RTT, services through Birmingham seem as follows...

To London Euston
xx:10 from Rugeley Trent Valley xx:14
xx:25 from Crew (via Stoke) xx:33
xx:50 from Liverpool Lime Street xx:54

From London Euston
xx:01 continues to Liverpool Lime Street xx:04
xx:13 continues to Crew (via Stoke) and Rugeley Trent Valley xx:20 simultaneously
xx:41 continues to Rugeley Trent Valley xx:49

To Rugeley Trent Valley
xx:13 from London Euston xx:20
xx:41 from London Euston xx:49

From Rugeley Trent Valley
xx:10 continues to London Euston xx:14
xx:37 continues to Birmingham International xx:39

To Birmingham International
xx:37 from Rugeley Trent Valley xx:39

From Birmingham International
xx:32 continues to Liverpool Lime Street xx:35

To Crewe (via Stoke)
xx:13 from London Euston xx:20

From Crewe (via Stoke)
xx:25 continues to London Euston xx:33

To Liverpool Lime Street
xx:32 from Birmingham International xx:35
xx:01 from London Euston xx:04

From Liverpool Lime Street
xx:20 Joins with xx:26 from Crew (via Stoke), continuing to London Euston xx:33
xx:50 continues to London Euston xx:45

(The Wolverhampton - Walsall local services are also timed as 350s.)

Effectively making the train "sets" working per hour:
(1) EUS - LIV, LIV - EUS
(2) EUS - CRE (with (3) as far as BHM), CRW - EUS (joining onto (4) at BHM)
(3) EUS - RGL (with (2) as far as BHM), RGL - EUS
(4) EUS - RGL, RGL - BHI, BHI - LIV, LIV - EUS (joining onto (2) at BHM)

I *think* Bletchleyite may have said the new timetable nearly abolishes 4 car working on the South WCML. He may be able to give more detail though.

I'm pretty sure the platform extensions out to Rugeley are only designed for 4 coaches, so that non-splitting service to Rugeley. I think it is likely it has to split elsewhere or be 4 coaches.

 

[driver_m]

I’m not really seeing the issue here after working all this out. An hourly split and an hourly join. Another run out to international to get a set out the way same as TFW. When you consider VT does join ups at a mix of places including New St at more random times and places than these without issue, then I don’t really see the problem other than delays. The one splitting at the same time in either direction could be a nightmare though for dispatching with passengers getting on the wrong set and potential for PTI problems.

 

[Bald Rick]

I’ll have a go, having looked at RTT for 2 minutes for some sample times. (As a result, some of the detail may be different in different hours)

xx15 Euston to Crewe / Rugeley. FL to Ledburn, first stop Leighton Buzzard. Then all stops to Coventry via Northampton, skip stop to New Street where the train divides (7 minutes for the split): front half for Crewe via Soho and Stoke, rear half to Rugeley via Aston. Both depart New Street at the same time.

xx24 Euston to Rugeley. SL all the way, Watford, Hemel then all stations via Northampton to Marston Green, the fast to New Street (6 minute lay over). Then to Rugeley via Soho.

xx49 Euston to Liverpool. FL to MKC, calling Watford and MKC only. Then via Northampton (16 min layover) to Birmingham calling all stations except Wolverton and Adderley Park; thence to Liverpool.

In the Up direction:

xx14 New Street to Euston, starting back at Rugeley. All stations to Leighton Buzzard except Adderley Park, then fast to Euston (Fast Line from Ledburn). 4 minute layover at Northampton.

xx33 New Street to Euston, formed of a portion from Liverpool (arr xx20) and a portion from Crewe via Stoke (arr xx25), both arriving from Soho direction. Skip stop to Coventry, 5 minute layover at Northampton, Fast Line from Hanslope, MKC and Watford only.

xx54 New Street to Euston, starting back from Liverpool. Reverse calling pattern of the Down xx24 to Rugeley, ie slow line the whole way. 4 min layovers at Wolves and Birmingham, 11 mins at Northampton.


So:

Northbound, 3 trains, 2 for Rugeley and one each to Crewe and Liverpool.

Southbound, 3 trains, 2 from Liverpool and one each from Rugeley and Crewe.

The imbalance is resolved by the New Street - International shuttles, which come in from Rugeley, terminate at International, and go back out to Liverpool. This means that arrivals and departures between New Street and the north are:

Liverpool x 2
Rugeley x 2
Crewe via Stoke x 1


Separately, the Crewe fasts are unchanged, save for running direct from Stafford to Crewe rather than via Stoke.

 

[sd0733]

In which case, I do hope someone has had a good look at the train crew diagrams to make sure they haven’t been over optimised. If the changeover arrangements are too tight (which is a fear, having now found out who has been involved in this timetable), it will fall like a pack of cards.

Alternatively, the train crew reps can always put in for some Nike’s.

Our Crewe guards diagrams arent bad at New Street, some diagrams are the same where we arrive from Liverpool at xx:18 and work an xx:36 back whilst we are the only depot to sign Crewe-stoke-Birmingham and do all that work and this has fairly lengthy turnarounds at both ends.

 

[sd0733]

Crewe drivers only sign as far south as Rugby, the conductors go as far as MK.
Northampton drivers sign to Crewe but bletchley drivers don’t.

Crewe guards sign Euston now. There are no jobs we work to Northampton, Rugby or Milton Keynes from the north now, all straight to Euston. Weve even got the delights of a Tring stopper!

 

[OrangeJuice]

Realising I probably won't be trusted after the last mess up, but according to RTT, services through Birmingham seem as follows...

To London Euston
xx:10 from Rugeley Trent Valley xx:14
xx:25 from Crew (via Stoke) xx:33
xx:50 from Liverpool Lime Street xx:54

From London Euston
xx:01 continues to Liverpool Lime Street xx:04
xx:13 continues to Crew (via Stoke) and Rugeley Trent Valley xx:20 simultaneously
xx:41 continues to Rugeley Trent Valley xx:49

To Rugeley Trent Valley
xx:13 from London Euston xx:20
xx:41 from London Euston xx:49

From Rugeley Trent Valley
xx:10 continues to London Euston xx:14
xx:37 continues to Birmingham International xx:39

To Birmingham International
xx:37 from Rugeley Trent Valley xx:39

From Birmingham International
xx:32 continues to Liverpool Lime Street xx:35

To Crewe (via Stoke)
xx:13 from London Euston xx:20

From Crewe (via Stoke)
xx:25 continues to London Euston xx:33

To Liverpool Lime Street
xx:32 from Birmingham International xx:35
xx:01 from London Euston xx:04

From Liverpool Lime Street
xx:20 Joins with xx:26 from Crew (via Stoke), continuing to London Euston xx:33
xx:50 continues to London Euston xx:45

(The Wolverhampton - Walsall local services are also timed as 350s.)

Effectively making the train "sets" working per hour:
(1) EUS - LIV, LIV - EUS
(2) EUS - CRE (with (3) as far as BHM), CRW - EUS (joining onto (4) at BHM)
(3) EUS - RGL (with (2) as far as BHM), RGL - EUS
(4) EUS - RGL, RGL - BHI, BHI - LIV, LIV - EUS (joining onto (2) at BHM)



I'm pretty sure the platform extensions out to Rugeley are only designed for 4 coaches, so that non-splitting service to Rugeley. I think it is likely it has to split elsewhere or be 4 coaches.

Based on the fact that the services heading North from New Street are likely to be 4 coaches each, would that mean there will be 2x 4 coach trains from Northampton to Birmingham continuing to Rugeley and Liverpool, plus one 8 coach service splitting at New Street to Crewe and Rugeley?

Or are they going to 'dump' a 4 car unit in the platform at New Street to wait for a return portion from Rugeley or Liverpool? As this would likely ruin the benefits of running trains through Birmingham.

 

[Bald Rick]

Based on the fact that the services heading North from New Street are likely to be 4 coaches each, would that mean there will be 2x 4 coach trains from Northampton to Birmingham continuing to Rugeley and Liverpool, plus one 8 coach service splitting at New Street to Crewe and Rugeley?

Or are they going to 'dump' a 4 car unit in the platform at New Street to wait for a return portion from Rugeley or Liverpool? As this would likely ruin the benefits of running trains through Birmingham.

Neither.

From my reading of the timetable, it looks like an 8 car north (xx15 from Euston) which splits at New Street for Rugeley and Crewe, and 2 x 4 cars arriving southbound at New St from Liverpool and Crewe.

Nothing is left at New St, down services use 3 (the splitter) and 7, up services use 1.

It’s possible that the dedicated EUS-LIV-EUS circuit is also 8 car throughout.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I really hope, for the sake of the passengers on these new splitting and joining services, that they finally open up the walkway between the two units. Seems to be a WMT speciality to keep them shut, despite this being utterly ludicrous given that the virtually identical 450s have them open all the time. I don't fancy being a passenger who discovers at New Street that they're in the wrong unit, and has 5 or 6 minutes to get to the other unit amongst a horde of commuters at rush hour.

Of course fare evaders might rather like the current setup, provided they're smart enough to cotton on to which unit they won't get a check on!

 

[sd0733]

I really hope, for the sake of the passengers on these new splitting and joining services, that they finally open up the walkway between the two units. Seems to be a WMT speciality to keep them shut, despite this being utterly ludicrous given that the virtually identical 450s have them open all the time. I don't fancy being a passenger who discovers at New Street that they're in the wrong unit, and has 5 or 6 minutes to get to the other unit amongst a horde of commuters at rush hour.

Of course fare evaders might rather like the current setup, provided they're smart enough to cotton on to which unit they won't get a check on!

That certainly isnt policy. The doors are open and available to walk through on any train I ever work and when I'm travelling pass too.
If it's in service all gangways are supposed to be in use.

 

[sd0733]

Certainly used to be Crewe drivers as far as MK, then another depot's driver takes over.

Crewe drivers have never signed beyond Northampton/Rugby. If it's a driver change it's just between Bletchley/Northampton drivers.
Crewe conductors currently change at MK but this will cease at the timetable change as we now sign Euston

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

That certainly isnt policy. The doors are open and available to walk through on any train I ever work and when I'm travelling pass too.
If it's in service all gangways are supposed to be in use.

Well, must just be my luck then, as I've never seen them open and I used to commute on them 5 days a week!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, must just be my luck then, as I've never seen them open and I used to commute on them 5 days a week!

I've very rarely seen them not open. Some guards like to open the intermediate cab door across the gangway to make themselves some space, but will close it and let you past if you want.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s possible that the dedicated EUS-LIV-EUS circuit is also 8 car throughout.

Or will it just gain/lose coaches at Northampton? Aren't there platform length issues with 8-car Liverpools? Though I suppose UDS could be used...

 

[Deafdoggie]

Or will it just gain/lose coaches at Northampton? Aren't there platform length issues with 8-car Liverpools? Though I suppose UDS could be used...

You can't get 8 coaches in Liverpool South Parkway

 

[sd0733]

You can't get 8 coaches in Liverpool South Parkway

You cant but its authorised for unit deselect there. I've not seen any weekday 8 car but on a Saturday theres plenty of 8 cars to Liverpool from 25th May