LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

[pt_mad]

One 4-car set runs from Liverpool to New St. Another runs from Crewe to New St via Stoke. They meet at New St and join to form an 8-car train to Euston via Northampton.

This is an utter inter-related mess and it is all going to end in tears just like Northern. Having seen just how complex it is, I now strongly oppose it. It shouldn't have been done until enough units and crews existed to keep the diagrams separated and simple.

As an example of how it should be diagrammed to be reliable and have adequate capacity for the extra demand the through working will bring, there should be a self-contained set of 8-car trains and crews (with an extra 4 to bring to 12 south of Northampton at peak times) operating nothing but Euston-Brum-Liverpool and vice versa, with the same calling pattern both ways.

If that wasn't possible (as I suspect it wasn't), the service should not be operated.

So for the sake of simplicity, the service from Crewe joins the service from Liverpool to form a Euston?

Is it the same northbound? The Crewe via Stoke splits from the Liverpool?

Is there a split involving the Rugeley too?

Also which set will arrive at New St first? The one from Liverpool or Crewe? Likewise northbound which heads north first?

 

[ChrisHogan]

The Industry planning community rumour is that the mastermind behind the bizarre Central Trains join ups has had a big hand in this timetable. In which case the resource plan will be "interesting" as his previous plans involved short turnrounds after very long journeys and also train crew having to be remarkably fit when (often) changing trains!

I can confirm "GNK" is indeed the author of this timetable at WMT. What I find amazing is that there are people at Centro/TfWM/WMRE (Peter Sargant comes to mind) and at the SRA/DfT (Toni Eastland ditto) who were around in the early 2000s and are still there today in their new organisations that ought to be aware what is planned and the potential for it all going wrong. The Abellio people were probably taken in by the ORCATs raid and journey opportunities. Network Rail appears to have been completely incompetent if it doesn't understand the capacity constraints at New Street before signing off the timetable proposals in the franchise bid.

All we can hope that every train is recrewed at NS so that there is ample scope to re-resource services whenever there is disruption on any side.

 

[centraltrains]

What happens when one of these London - Rugeley - International - Liverpool - London trains gets delayed? I notice there is a lot longer turn around time at International than there is presently, but still seems very risky. Can't imagine cutting any of these services early has "little" impact... I hope it doesn't effect the Cross City too much...

I imagine this will make platform crushes more of a thing at New Street when everyone changes train...

 

[RealTrains07]

So for the sake of simplicity, the service from Crewe joins the service from Liverpool to form a Euston?

Is it the same northbound? The Crewe via Stoke splits from the Liverpool?

Is there a split involving the Rugeley too?

Also which set will arrive at New St first? The one from Liverpool or Crewe? Likewise northbound which heads north first?

From euston going northbound
Crewe via stoke splits from a rugeley bound service, 1tph.

Liverpool going northbound from london unsure about split, whether its at Northampton or brum??

Far as timetable shows; it seems liverpool trains only join up with crewe trains when going southbound

 

[pt_mad]

From euston going northbound
Crewe via stoke splits from a rugeley bound service, 1tph.

Liverpool going northbound from london unsure about split, whether its at Northampton or brum??

Far as timetable shows; it seems liverpool trains only join up with crewe trains when going southbound

So what about the 3rd Birmingham train per hour departure from Euston? Would that not have to run through New St if there are very few turnarounds booked there?

 

[sufian123]

So what about the 3rd Birmingham train per hour departure from Euston? Would that not have to run through New St if there are very few turnarounds booked there?

xx24 Milton Keynes terminator extended to Rugeley via new st.

xx49 extended to Liverpool via new St

xx15 (ex xx13) extended to Crewe CIA stoke with a portion to Rugeley after spitting at new st.

xx54 which terminates at Northampton will now terminate at Milton Keynes.

 

[pt_mad]

xx24 Milton Keynes terminator extended to Rugeley via new st.

xx49 extended to Liverpool via new St

xx15 (ex xx13) extended to Crewe CIA stoke with a portion to Rugeley after spitting at new st.

xx54 which terminates at Northampton will now terminate at Milton Keynes.

So the xx24 is a second Rugeley via New St train per hour??

 

[The Planner]

I can confirm "GNK" is indeed the author of this timetable at WMT. What I find amazing is that there are people at Centro/TfWM/WMRE (Peter Sargant comes to mind) and at the SRA/DfT (Toni Eastland ditto) who were around in the early 2000s and are still there today in their new organisations that ought to be aware what is planned and the potential for it all going wrong. The Abellio people were probably taken in by the ORCATs raid and journey opportunities. Network Rail appears to have been completely incompetent if it doesn't understand the capacity constraints at New Street before signing off the timetable proposals in the franchise bid.

All we can hope that every train is recrewed at NS so that there is ample scope to re-resource services whenever there is disruption on any side.

Does "GNK" live down in the South West now? as I thought "RC" had a big hand in it too? As for understanding New St, technically if the bid was compliant there isn't a massive amount we can do. We can raise what the issues are, and I fully suspect we did during the bid evaluation plus marked it accordingly back to the DfT, but it doesn't mean we will get listened to.

 

[sufian123]

So the xx24 is a second Rugeley via New St train per hour??

Correct.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can confirm "GNK" is indeed the author of this timetable at WMT.

Oh dear. In my experience any remnant of Central Trains at LM (as-was) led to disaster. The competent TOC out of those two was definitely Silverlink, though CT had the original "random unit generator" so I wait with baited breath the day when a 319 shows up waiting to couple to a 350...

 

[47421]

Before the individuals and organisations involved are condemned shouldnt we at least wait to see what happens? After all there are real benefits of the changes - improved journey times, many new through journey opportunities, the new hourly Shrewsbury etc etc. If no risks are taken then no changes are made and no passenger benefits achieved

 

[Bletchleyite]

Before the individuals and organisations involved are condemned shouldnt we at least wait to see what happens? After all there are real benefits of the changes - improved journey times, many new through journey opportunities, the new hourly Shrewsbury etc etc. If no risks are taken then no changes are made and no passenger benefits achieved

Timetable planning should not be done by "trying it and seeing what happens". It should be simple, robust and easily modelled. This is not, it will be a mess.

Maybe it'll work on day one. But what when someone breathes on the south WCML and the service can't be recovered?

I'm not opposed to the through services and portion working, but it needs more crews and units chucking in so the diagrams can be kept separate and self-contained. LNR need to remember their core market - there's a danger of them going all Chiltern on this and forgetting that they are primarily an outersuburban and regional commuter operation[1], and providing a reliable and competent service to that market must always be their absolute priority.

[1] Other than the Trent Valley service, which again should stand alone as a self-contained set of 8-car 110mph diagrams.

 

[pt_mad]

The fastest of the semi fast Birmingham to Eustons every hour looks to be 1hr 58 which is good compared to VT's 1hr25 or 28 ish when you think about the difference in price for basically what is half an hour difference.

 

[DavidGrain]

Yes Virgin went from the BR 1hr 36min to 1hr 50mins + and then hailed it as a great achievement of privatisation when they go it back to 1hr 35mins before the Pendos became fully operational.
In 1914 London North Western Railway (the original) had a fastest train of 2 hours from Birmingham to London Broad Street.

 

[RealTrains07]

So what about the 3rd Birmingham train per hour departure from Euston? Would that not have to run through New St if there are very few turnarounds booked there?

From london every hour (majority of the day)

1 tph london - crewe, through brum
1 tph london - liverpool through brum
1 tph london - rugeley through brum

Those are the 3 trains that go from euston through birmingham

 

[RealTrains07]

It would be interesting to see what happens with the rumoured new route to manchester?

As well as a liverpool train via trent valley too. That would be quite something? If ever possible or if it ever happens that is

 

[driver_m]

Why is that xx13 service being put back to xx15? Surely that’s just guaranteed to delay the xx20 VT and make the xx23 catch it up, therefore potentially delaying the xx30 Fast Glasgow too.

Or is it being Crossed over at Bourne End instead to get it out of the way quicker? Presume there must be a clash somewhere.

 

[Ianno87]

Why is that xx13 service being put back to xx15? Surely that’s just guaranteed to delay the xx20 VT and make the xx23 catch it up, therefore potentially delaying the xx30 Fast Glasgow too.

Or is it being Crossed over at Bourne End instead to get it out of the way quicker? Presume there must be a clash somewhere.

No the xx13 has never previously been timed at 100mph.

xx15 is it now being timed at 110mph, catching up with its existing timing at Ledburn (more or less - I think its about allf a minute later, but still compliant in front of the xx20 as it was more than 3 minutes already)

 

[driver_m]

No the xx13 has never previously been timed at 100mph.

xx15 is it now being timed at 110mph, catching up with its existing timing at Ledburn (more or less - I think its about allf a minute later, but still compliant in front of the xx20 as it was more than 3 minutes already)

In that case, why not leave it at xx13 and give it a bit of resilience? Previous train to that is our xx10 Chester or Wales. Not like there’s anything else can fit inbetween out of Euston, plus it clears a platform quicker, which will help seeing as 17 and 18 are imminent for going. On paper I agree with your timings, but down at Euston, the box can be slow to clear signals, There are always commuters trying to hold up an imminent departure so they can save 5 minutes and there are going to be an increase in conflicts coming into Euston with the two less platforms.

 

[Ianno87]

In that case, why not leave it at xx13 and give it a bit of resilience? Previous train to that is our xx10 Chester or Wales. Not like there’s anything else can fit inbetween out of Euston, plus it clears a platform quicker, which will help seeing as 17 and 18 are imminent for going. On paper I agree with your timings, but down at Euston, the box can be slow to clear signals, There are always commuters trying to hold up an imminent departure so they can save 5 minutes and there are going to be an increase in conflicts coming into Euston with the two less platforms.

That 2 minutes no doubt means something in terms of ORCATS (revenue) allocation, and/or possibly drives an effeciency in the crew diagramming.

Plus the xx15 departure might actually solve a platform end conflict that would be present with an xx13 departure. For example it could now depart behind the standard xx14 VT arrival from New St.

 

[The Planner]

It would be interesting to see what happens with the rumoured new route to manchester?

As well as a liverpool train via trent valley too. That would be quite something? If ever possible or if it ever happens that is

It is to the airport they are after, not Picc. Good luck with another LNR to Liverpool....

 

[RealTrains07]

It is to the airport they are after, not Picc. Good luck with another LNR to Liverpool....

Can you send a train direct to the airport without having to go into piccadily and turnaround??

Actually Where does it say LNR are interested in going after manchester airport services??

Mabye we could replace some of the via birmingham liverpool services with via TV ones?

 

[43074]

Can you send a train direct to the airport without having to go into piccadily and turnaround??

Actually Where does it say LNR are interested in going after manchester airport services??

Mabye we could replace some of the via birmingham liverpool services with via TV ones?

Yes the line between Piccadilly and Wilmslow via Styal & Heald Green has both Northbound and Southbound spurs to the Airport, LNR would use the Southern spur as there are no paths between Stockport and Piccadilly or between the Airport and Piccadilly. It was suggested when the franchise was awarded but I don't think anything was officially said by LNR.

 

[Silverlinky]

Yes the line between Piccadilly and Wilmslow via Styal & Heald Green has both Northbound and Southbound spurs to the Airport, LNR would use the Southern spur as there are no paths between Stockport and Piccadilly or between the Airport and Piccadilly. It was suggested when the franchise was awarded but I don't think anything was officially said by LNR.

Correct, i've only heard it mentioned once, that they were looking at trying to start it in December 19.

Does anyone remember the old First NorthWestern services from Euston, class 322 Stansted units? Very shortlived.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone remember the old First NorthWestern services from Euston, class 322 Stansted units? Very shortlived.

I used one once for a day trip as a student. Me, the driver, the guard and maybe one or two others. Very pleasant but not exactly financially viable.

What's different about LNR is that it would be an extension of an already viable service - the Trent Valley stopper. Probably just take one extra unit and crew.

 

[Ianno87]

It is to the airport they are after, not Picc. ...

When you think about it, why *would* LNR be interested in Picc?
-Crewe-Manchester revenue is already split 3 ways, with price competition (VT/TfW/Northern)
-Stoke-Manchester also split 3 ways, likewise (VT, XC, Northern)
-Brum-Manchester I get the impression isn't that big an earner for XC in the grand scheme of things, an LNR (who certainly wouldn't be matching XC on journey time) would get no more than a third of that

Whereas southern connectivity to Manchester Airport from anywhere south of Crewe probably is a bit of a hole in the market.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When you think about it, why *would* LNR be interested in Picc?

Because Manchester to London is probably the biggest non-commuter public transport market in the UK by some margin?

I reckon at the usual bargain basement fares they could well fill an 8-car per hour easily with end to end passengers, and do some serious damage to Megabus as they do.

 

[Silverlinky]

I can confirm "GNK" is indeed the author of this timetable at WMT. What I find amazing is that there are people at Centro/TfWM/WMRE (Peter Sargant comes to mind) and at the SRA/DfT (Toni Eastland ditto) who were around in the early 2000s and are still there today in their new organisations that ought to be aware what is planned and the potential for it all going wrong. The Abellio people were probably taken in by the ORCATs raid and journey opportunities. Network Rail appears to have been completely incompetent if it doesn't understand the capacity constraints at New Street before signing off the timetable proposals in the franchise bid.

All we can hope that every train is recrewed at NS so that there is ample scope to re-resource services whenever there is disruption on any side.

No additional road learning has been carried out, so Coventry and New Street Drivers dont sign further south than Northampton, and Northampton/Bletchley drivers don't sign any further north than New Street (that way at least) so crew changes at New Street will be the norm.

Lots of potential for things to go wrong....8 car from Euston turns up and one or other crew is missing at New Street.....half the southbound service turns up with half delayed...do they send the four car and if so what do they do with the (now) spare other 4 cars?

There was also talk of "coupling on the move".....when the 2nd 4 car comes in and instead of stopping, opening doors, closing doors, coupling up and then reopening doors etc, it just came in and coupled straight onto the unit already there.......after stopping first to ensure a smooth coupling of course. The New Street passengers seem a bit dense at times, they see open doors and jump on, so stopping and coupling in the conventional sense (after opening doors) would be a nightmare. The flipside to that is that when the second half comes to a stand, and then starts moving again the passengers will think they've missed the stop and be pulling passcoms left right and centre!

 

[Ianno87]

Because Manchester to London is probably the biggest non-commuter public transport market in the UK by some margin?

I reckon at the usual bargain basement fares they could well fill an 8-car per hour easily with end to end passengers, and do some serious damage to Megabus as they do.

The difference with Brum-London, is that in that case, these are services that they are (by and large) otherwise contracted to run anyway as part of their Train Service Requirement - the marginal cost of joining everything up across Northampton being relatively low.

For a Manchester service, the added operational cost (including train crew - Manchester being outside their current spherw of operation) has got to have the service stand up on its own two legs.

 

[Bald Rick]

Because Manchester to London is probably the biggest non-commuter public transport market in the UK by some margin?.

That’s Birmingham to London.