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Could an Auction Style System work on the Long Distance rail?

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Jorge Da Silva

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Virgin Trains has suggested as part of the Williams Review that an auction style system could work for Long Distance Operators?

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...s-for-airline-style-fares-and-seating-for-all

The firm, which has run the UK’s biggest intercity service since privatisation, also proposed that operators bid for departure slots rather than franchises, to stimulate ongoing competition on long-distance routes.

Under its proposals, firms could bid for indefinite rights to operate bundles of departure slots for intercity train services – similar to airlines at airports - rather than a particular franchise for a defined period.

“It is clear we need systemic industry reform which is driven by principles and a whole-system redesign. Indeed, it is highly questionable whether any franchises can be let sensibly, or robustly, as things stand,” he said.

Virgin, whose rail services have all been operated in conjunction with Stagecoach, suggested that its reforms could be introduced either on the east coast route – replacing the franchise it lost in 2018 after being unable to meet promised payments to government – or with HS2.

Any thoughts?
 
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higthomas

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I think not with the ticket system we currently have. Hence they suggested both at once.

Also I like the idea of negative bids for unwanted slots which would be the inevitable consequence of wanting to maintain a service at unprofitable times.
 

pdeaves

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My immediate thoughts without delving in too far.
With 'millions' of separate operators:
  • who would define the timetable? Would NR set it and companies bid for that exact t/t? I can't see it working if each operator says 'I want this time'.
  • who would look at the overall route strategy? A large dominant operator can look at things like where infrastructure or timetable changes would be beneficial to the customer and make best use of the network (rather than setting everything in aspic forever).
 

Mag_seven

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this one is about the idea of train slots being purchase by companies i.e. an open access system

I'm sure that was the system some had in mind when the railways were originally privatised e.g. you could could have one operator operating the 17.00 Euston-Manchester path and another operating the 18.00 Euston-Manchester path.
 

Peter Kelford

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Would 100% open access just leave us with an irregularly timed (e.g. 15:32, 16:44, 17:21 etc.) system where, in accordance with Murphy's Law, trains would arrive just after a connecting train leaves (e.g. Train 1 arrives at 12:22 while Train 2 leaves at 12:21)
 

Bletchleyite

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Would 100% open access just leave us with an irregularly timed (e.g. 15:32, 16:44, 17:21 etc.) system where, in accordance with Murphy's Law, trains would arrive just after a connecting train leaves (e.g. Train 1 arrives at 12:22 while Train 2 leaves at 12:21)

That depends what you put up for auction, of course. You could make it completely open in which case that will happen. Or you could decide the timetable then auction the slots on it (various ways to do this, e.g. auctioning matching "train pairs"). This is how it seems to be done for long distance buses in Albania and Kosovo - it's all private companies where you pay on board, but they are in "clockface" slots.
 

Peter Kelford

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That depends what you put up for auction, of course. You could make it completely open in which case that will happen. Or you could decide the timetable then auction the slots on it (various ways to do this, e.g. auctioning matching "train pairs"). This is how it seems to be done for long distance buses in Albania and Kosovo - it's all private companies where you pay on board, but they are in "clockface" slots.

Then everyone would bid for the rush-hour slots whilst the not-so-profitable yet essential daytime and weekend services get ignored.
 

Bletchleyite

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Then everyone would bid for the rush-hour slots whilst the not-so-profitable yet essential daytime and weekend services get ignored.

It appears that that is precisely what VT want to do.

The whole thing is simply about lining their pockets, dressed up in false claims of passenger benefit and some quite insulting comments towards those who need to travel at short notice. Says a lot.
 

The Planner

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Which is why you buy a package, eg: 0700 Picc to Euston plus its bundled with 3 or 4 others such as an off peak Blackpool and Chester.
 

pdeaves

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This quickly highlights the difference between an entrepreneur's idealist money-making view and a practical, network-useful-to-passengers view.
 

Bletchleyite

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This quickly highlights the difference between an entrepreneur's idealist money-making view and a practical, network-useful-to-passengers view.

His concepts (ignoring compulsory reservations, which are somewhat aside to that and have their own thread) are precisely the former, and are actually, in their wording, outrageously insulting and condescending towards passengers, too. They have laid out their cards, and having read them I've now decided I'm glad they are out of the running.
 

cuccir

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Would be one of the only ways you could make it work, if it was purely bidding for one path at a time then what happens if no one wants a specific one?

One option would be that the state or a state owned company (let's call them Directly Operated Railways, DOR) operates those services.

I can imagine a system (probably very different from what Virgin are imgaining!) in which the state, or DOR, announces a timetable. Private companies bid in an auction to run each service, with a reserve price set to ensure that the state gets good value out of the system. Any unsold services are run by DOR. In addition, private companies could offer to run additional services in any empty slots, at a lower fee.

This would essentially be a variant on the model used in some countries (the Netherlands I think?) in which essentially private companies can run services if they can match the basic offer of the state.
 

Fawkes Cat

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Efficient use of stock could be enforced by auctioning diagrams (so if you want to run the 0700 LIV - 0900 EUS for the business traffic, you're also obliged to operate the return working 0930 EUS - 1130 LIV, 1200 LIV - 1400 EUS and so on*) - but that would mean that timetabling was done by whoever ringmastered the whole show - presumably the government. And that wouldn't go down too well with 'small government' wonks, or lead to a timetable that was particularly responsive to passenger demand.

*Yes, a two hour journey time and thirty minute turnarounds at the terminals. It makes the sums easy, and you can always dream.

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Actually, it seems to me that if you lose the concept of open tickets, and don't worry too much about government involvement, this could be made to work (although making something work isn't the same as coming up with an optimal solution).

To try and work a simple example, let's imagine a Y shaped railway system - a very simplified WCML with trains up the leg of the Y from Euston to Stafford, and Liverpool at the end of one arm, and Manchester at the end of the other. London (Euston), Manchester, Liverpool (Merseyside) and Staffordshire all have public transport authorities (PTAs) who are required to (and are to some extent funded to) consider long distance travel for their residents. The public transport authorities are all responsible to the public in the same way that TfL, TfGM and Merseytravel are in the real world.

To make auctioning work, there must be a vendor with something to auction. Let's call that the DfT. Based on something - the existing timetable? Pure guesswork? - they prepare a timetable and put the lots up for auction.

The bidders bid. Some lots are sold. Some aren't. The DfT has a look at the timetable that is produced. The DfT will then conduct another auction - but with a different set of bidders. The public transport authorities are asked to bid to have services operated in the vacant slots that haven't already been filled commercially. The authorities (we imagine) will do what is best for the community they serve, and make their educated judgement of how much money they should commit to serving their community So Merseytravel may be prepared to pay £5,000 for a train from Liverpool arriving at Euston at 1030 - but if TfGM is willing to pay £5,500 for a train occupying that slot south from Stafford then Manchester will get an extra slot at Liverpool's expense. Staffordshire County Transport (SCT) will presumably not care where a train has started, as long as it goes to Euston, but happily bid £1,000 for a train arriving at Euston at 1030. They might also want to bid £2,000 for a train to Liverpool but not want to offer so many opportunities to Manchester so only bid £1,500 for a Manchester train. But if TfL had wanted a train to Manchester only a little more than a train to Liverpool, and so had bid £3,250 to Manchester but £3,000 to Liverpool, we find that the total bid for the train to Liverpool is (£3,000 (TfL) + £2,000 (SCT) = £5,000) while the total bid for a Manchester train is (£3,250 (TfL) + £1,500 (SCT) = £4,750). Liverpool gets the extra slot.

So, two auctions have been conducted. The train companies have bid for the trains they want to run. In the gaps this has left, the PTAs have put money into the pot for the trains that they would like but which the train companies don't want to run. We must therefore open a third auction: the train companies will bid again on the services that the PTAs want to run, in the knowledge that they are bidding to be given the money that the PTAs have already put in.

It would work. But even on my Y-shaped system, it's complex - and not necessarily transparent. But if Virgin (or whoever) insist, it can be made to work.
 
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