Petition to bring back the buffet on GWR

[irish_rail]

This. Buffets are no longer required because the choice of sandwiches/ snack food in and around stations is much more plentiful than it was 20-30 years ago.

Except on all stations west of reading towards Penzance........

 

[tsr]

One quirk of the London to Penzance route is that other than Paddington and reading the retail offerings at all stations on the route is extremely poor for buying food, especially at some of the smaller stations but even at the likes of Plymouth and Exeter. Another reason why decent catering should be considered on these services...

I always find it entertaining that many of the significant stations on the GWR branches have better catering than those on the mainline!

 

[bnm]

Except on all stations west of reading towards Penzance........

You are aware of the catering outlets at Westbury (station buffet), Castle Cary ('The Butty Box'), Taunton (Starbucks - serving hot and cold food, Dashi cafe with takeaway food), Tiverton Parkway (shop selling sandwiches and pasties), Exeter St Davids (Starbucks, Pumpkin cafe, two convenience stores just outside), Newton Abbot (Pumpkin Cafe), Plymouth (Pumpkin Cafe, Spar).

And at all those locations, and any other station on the route, passengers are able to buy food on their way to the station, or even take their own.

You're really over-egging the necessity of an on train buffet. A journey without a freshly brewed tea or coffee isn't the end of the world.

 

[Master29]

A meal? How many people buy more than a cup of coffee or tea and a snack aboard the train? Given the 800 / 802 have a kitchen at one end if demand was there for a meal it could be offered, just needing someone to deliver it to the passenger?

They have been using 7- or 8-car trains for the last 40 years. The plan doesn't appear to involve 5-car trains east of Plymouth and from what we have been told on here by informed sources means very much more capacity in Cornwall than is currently on offer.

...But they don`t offer meals though do they. On all but the Pullman dining services you have 2 huge pointless unused kitchens that take up far more space than the 16 seats of a micro buffet. If you want more seats maybe you could start there. The whole project is poorly thought out despite what is being continually parroted from various sources concerning funding, small platforms etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And with LNER , Anglia , TPE all introducing buffets for much shorter journeys it seems scandalous that GWR passengers are paying the price for dft incompetence.

TPE are not introducing buffets.

 

[Bishopstone]

One quirk of the London to Penzance route is that other than Paddington and reading the retail offerings at all stations on the route is extremely poor for buying food, especially at some of the smaller stations but even at the likes of Plymouth and Exeter. Another reason why decent catering should be considered on these services...

On, or just outside the station, Exeter has Starbucks; Costa Coffee; WH Smith with their packaged sandwiches, crisps and confectionary; at least one SSP outlet selling savouries etc, and a range of vending machines. What were you expecting?

 

[DDB]

Trolley service on weekdays, and a static trolley on weekdays, in the buffet space

This has always intreguied me. Unlike some I have always confidence that those whose jobs depend on knowing if a buffet or trolley is preferred and have access to the sales data will have got it right. So if buffets are closed in favour of trolleys its because trolleys generate more sales. The question is then is what is different about weekends? Maybe there are more groups so one member can be sent to the "buffet" while the others guard seats and belongings? Or maybe it is the lack of first class hosts mean it is desired to have the catering in one fixed location near first class for first class passengers to pick up their complimentary refreshments.

DDB

 

[irish_rail]

On, or just outside the station, Exeter has Starbucks; Costa Coffee; WH Smith with their packaged sandwiches, crisps and confectionary; at least one SSP outlet selling savouries etc, and a range of vending machines. What were you expecting?

What am I expecting? Well many travellers on this route have rather higher expectations than a ginsters pasty from pumpkin. People would like the likes of M&S or the odd small supermarket like Sainsbury's. It's easy to criticise and tell us to make do if you don't actually use the route regularly but people's expectations have moved on when it comes to food and they expect quality and choice . Choice is certainly not something you get at many stations down here when compared with stations up country.

 

[cactustwirly]

This has always intreguied me. Unlike some I have always confidence that those whose jobs depend on knowing if a buffet or trolley is preferred and have access to the sales data will have got it right. So if buffets are closed in favour of trolleys its because trolleys generate more sales. The question is then is what is different about weekends? Maybe there are more groups so one member can be sent to the "buffet" while the others guard seats and belongings? Or maybe it is the lack of first class hosts mean it is desired to have the catering in one fixed location near first class for first class passengers to pick up their complimentary refreshments.

DDB

There are no dedicated first class hosts on weekends, so I suspect they use the buffet, so it's easier for 1st class passengers to get their complimentaries

 

[Deafdoggie]

I honestly can’t see GWR willingly giving up buffets if they make money. I honestly can’t see DfT giving up buffets if it keeps the costs of franchises down. The only conclusion we can draw therefore, is that, as much as some people like them, they simply aren’t economic to operate.

 

[irish_rail]

I honestly can’t see GWR willingly giving up buffets if they make money. I honestly can’t see DfT giving up buffets if it keeps the costs of franchises down. The only conclusion we can draw therefore, is that, as much as some people like them, they simply aren’t economic to operate.

Yes but GWR should take a holistic approach and look at the reasons people will take the train instead of a car bus or plane. It may not be profitable but if it entices people out of their cars to take the train instead then it pays for itself in other ways.

 

[jimm]

Wow what a change from up to the 70's (pre HST) Kitchen car, Restaurant car, Buffet car, as well as first & second class cars added to all Penzance trains at Plymouth! No problem coupling/ uncoupling them, maybe very slight jolt on coupling sometimes!
HST - First Gwr later made proper meals for first class only.
Imo it is too long a journey without a meal being available.
Should be at least a 9 car train with some form of catering for all.

Ah yes, the longstanding practice of portion working west of Plymouth and the removal of/addition of the buffet-restaurant car and several passenger coaches from/to the formations of London trains there. I wonder why they used to do that... never mind that trains then took even longer to get to Penzance.

Pullman dining on FGW/GWR has never been for first class only - it is subject to availability of seats. Unless you have a first class ticket you are probably going to be turned away on the busy early evening pair of trains out of Paddington, but are more likely than not to get a Pullman meal on most of the other services if you want one while travelling standard class.

It's a strange one, they didn't have catering on the 27 push-pulls but introduced it at some point with the 47 push-pulls.

Considering how short a journey it is/was it must've been deemed as being able to make money.

Making money is not the point of much on-train catering provision. It is seen as part of the service offer on board. Breaking even or minimising losses is usually the best you can hope for and plenty of TOCs have pulled the plug even on trolleys in recent years.

What am I expecting? Well many travellers on this route have rather higher expectations than a ginsters pasty from pumpkin. People would like the likes of M&S or the odd small supermarket like Sainsbury's. It's easy to criticise and tell us to make do if you don't actually use the route regularly but people's expectations have moved on when it comes to food and they expect quality and choice . Choice is certainly not something you get at many stations down here when compared with stations up country.

Anyone with high expectations when it comes to food choices will have been sorely disappointed visiting just about any on-train buffet/shop, whether on GWR, Virgin, East Coast or anywhere else, for a long time now.

Some sandwiches, a couple of things that can be microwaved, crisps, cakes and sweets... which is not a lot different to what you can get from the trolley on a morning peak IET where bacon rolls have been provided in the catering stores to be bunged in the microwave.

Travelling Chef - an attempt to offer something between a basic buffet and a Pullman meal - died a death on FGW because it lost lots of money.

 

[Master29]

Yes but GWR should take a holistic approach and look at the reasons people will take the train instead of a car bus or plane. It may not be profitable but if it entices people out of their cars to take the train instead then it pays for itself in other ways.

And that my friend is exactly why this route needs a buffet, even a micro one.. Whether it`s profitable or not is not clear anyway. Whilst some here give sensible reasons as to why it isn`t happening I just can`t escape the feeling many do it simply to follow the crowd. The same people who waffle on about standing if there were a mini buffet omit to mention the 2 ridiculous amounts of space wastage that is the 2 unused kitchens on a 10 car unit on the vast majority of services . Tell me how that makes sense on the Penzance route? I must be missing something there.

 

[hexagon789]

Making money is not the point of much on-train catering provision. It is seen as part of the service offer on board. Breaking even or minimising losses is usually the best you can hope for and plenty of TOCs have pulled the plug even on trolleys in recent years.

Which is why Chiltern withdrew of course, losing money hand-over-fist.

 

[Indigo Soup]

There is a greater capacity for products which means less likely to sell out as quickly and none of this running out of hot water when at the opposite of the train and having to go the other end of the train for a top up.

Or my favourite trolley idiocy of ordering tea to be met with "Sorry, we're out of hot water. Would you like coffee instead?"

oh look your seat has been taken as you would have taken your luggage with you to the buffet counter to avoid the risk of it getting stolen.

Or you leave your luggage in the luggage rack and go to the buffet between stations, like normal human beings have done for decades.

I can fully appreciate that on-train catering is a horrific loss maker. It's also one of the things that differentiates a journey by train from one by air or coach. Not so much cars, as you can stop whenever and wherever you like.

Fobbing off long-distance passengers with second-rate or no catering will eventually make them wonder why they're paying so much for the privilege and go elsewhere. Especially when the reason given is that other people, on other services at other times want a seat. Nobody expects an outer suburban service to have a buffet. Nobody sane expects a 4+ hour InterCity service to use the same stock as an outer suburban service.

And certainly, nobody should need to commute daily by InterCity train. But the reasons why that is commonplace have nothing to do with the railway.

 

[bnm]

What am I expecting? Well many travellers on this route have rather higher expectations than a ginsters pasty from pumpkin.

And folk got that higher quality from a GWR buffet? The sandwiches, baguettes and toasties were very likely supplied from producers who also supply the likes of M&S and Sainsbury's. GWR tried higher quality (and higher priced) savouries from Chunk of Devon but they were poor sellers so we're withdrawn.

For the record, the Ginsters brand sandwiches available in SSP outlets such as Pumpkin are made in Cornwall with quality local ingredients. Do you know the provenance of the GWR buffet savouries?

 

[Deafdoggie]

If people leave the train in favour of other transport, rest assured GWR will be back in the buffet business in a flash. However, all the evidence points to the fact that’s not going to happen. I’m sorry, but railways have to be run on business principles, they can’t run on whims and dreams.

 

[Indigo Soup]

I’m sorry, but railways have to be run on business principles, they can’t run on whims and dreams.

So they all should have been closed in the 1960s as unprofitable? Like it or not, they aren't run on purely commercial grounds. The question is which unprofitable activities are undertaken, not whether they should be.

Removal of catering absolutely makes commercial sense. It's horrendously loss making, and takes up space that can be filled with seats. Seats which people will sit in, and which can be sold several times over thanks to the suburbanisation of our railway network.

I'd bet that plenty of long distance passengers have been lost, but the railway doesn't care because the revenue has been more than replaced by larger numbers of passengers travelling shorter distances. They're better served by removal of everything that isn't a seat, and by severing through services to improve reliability down to the minute. All of this is fine for the railway shareholders.

It isn't so good for the long distance passengers, or (I contend) for society at large. The long distance passengers don't stick with the railway, which has demonstrated it doesn't care. They abandon it for other, more socially detrimental, modes of transport.

Buffet cars aren't a panacea. They help solve one problem (but not on their own) at the expense of creating others. But their absence is a symptom of the choices that have been made in setting up our railways. Those choices aren't ones that everyone agrees with.

 

[Master29]

If people leave the train in favour of other transport, rest assured GWR will be back in the buffet business in a flash. However, all the evidence points to the fact that’s not going to happen. I’m sorry, but railways have to be run on business principles, they can’t run on whims and dreams.

How is talking about a micro buffet whims and dreams when LNER are doing precisely that? Can you provide evidence?
Going back to your first point this would be a good time for another budget airline to and from Newquay. Not only can it be a lot cheaper, certainly than the meagre GWR first class offerings you don`t have to book months in advance to get a good deal to which I can recently attest. I know Flybe have had a bit of a roasting lately but looking at GWR and their somewhat horrendous prices to the smoke you`d have to wonder if they weren`t setting themselves up for a fall. Coaches are a no go in my opinion but it might just be a good time for another airline (or of course Flybe upping their game). GWR may soon have to rethink theirs.

 

[dk1]

Always good business sense to have a loss leader. Most hotels with swimming pools would tell you the same. Long live onboard catering

 

[HamworthyGoods]

How is talking about a micro buffet whims and dreams when LNER are doing precisely that? Can you provide evidence? GWR may soon have to rethink theirs.

As mentioned by others including Clarence Yard the spec of the 800/802s was very micro-managed by DfT for that reason GWR isn’t unless instructed by DfT (which is unlikely as they don’t like buffets) going to replace seats with buffets.

What you have to remember is it’s not just the business case of fitting the micro-buffet, it’s taking it out too! So weeks ahead of the end of the franchise they would then have to start putting seats back in to return the units to as leased condition. If they took the kitchen out to be replaced by a buffet (or seats) that would have to be retrofitted in the same way.

In a franchise in direct award after direct award that just isn’t going to happen....

 

[Master29]

As mentioned by others including Clarence Yard the spec of the 800/802s was very micro-managed by DfT for that reason GWR isn’t unless instructed by DfT (which is unlikely as they don’t like buffets) going to replace seats with buffets.

What you have to remember is it’s not just the business case of fitting the micro-buffet, it’s taking it out too! So weeks ahead of the end of the franchise they would then have to start putting seats back in to return the units to as leased condition. If they took the kitchen out to be replaced by a buffet (or seats) that would have to be retrofitted in the same way.

In a franchise in direct award after direct award that just isn’t going to happen....

I understand the spec situation but it doesn`t really answer the question of whether or not it`s the right thing to do does it? That LNER have them and GWR not and we should accept this end of is all very well but public pressure can change their minds eventually. It`s such a shame I keep seeing people parroting that`s their decision end of whilst ignoring the 2 elephants in GWR`s front room i.e. The kitchens on 2x5 car units that do nothing on most journeys. Surely, that is a far bigger waist of space than a micro buffet.. You can state business cases all you like but it works both ways surely. Studies say LNER needs one but GWR doesn`t seems the rhetoric but based on what? It`s not about what is happening but what could and should happen.

 

[JN114]

With a kitchen on every unit you don’t have to worry about getting the right sets on the right services - which caused a number of issues with the diffferent flavours of buffet car available on HSTs. Countless times Pullman dining was pulled because the only set available was a TSB (mini-buffet) set. Today, with every IET having a kitchen, whatever turns up can do Pullman. Which, in turn, enables Pullman or a n other hot food offering to be expanded if there is the desire and demand in the future. It also provides stock storage space and a crew rest area - addressing two of the concerns raised by customer hosts prior to IET introduction.

Even if you did remove the kitchen you’d have to do some major reconfiguration to gain more standard class seats - it’s currently in a First Class vehicle. The trains don’t need even more First Class accommodation.

Ultimately, members here can argue about the relative merits and dismerits of technical specifications; of the supposedly gradually declining standard of travel facilities for passengers and so on and so on. If you want to feel like you’re doing something meaningful and coordinated about it the sign the petition. You’re not going to win over anyone here; the debate and discussion is relatively pointless.

 

[Parallel]

Many posters are saying the food from GWR buffets is nothing special, and although that may be true, I found the food to be generally of a good quality. The hot bacon baguettes were good and crispy, especially when compared to how soggy Virgin’s food goes once it’s been microwaved. I’d actually say the standard of food from the GWR buffets was of the same/similar quality of the station outlets. In fact, if I knew I was due to travel on a HST I would usually plan to buy lunch from the train rather than any outlets!

 

[Essexman]

Many posters are saying the food from GWR buffets is nothing special, and although that may be true, I found the food to be generally of a good quality. The hot bacon baguettes were good and crispy, especially when compared to how soggy Virgin’s food goes once it’s been microwaved. I’d actually say the standard of food from the GWR buffets was of the same/similar quality of the station outlets. In fact, if I knew I was due to travel on a HST I would usually plan to buy lunch from the train rather than any outlets!

So did I. I'll miss the bacon baguettes. A couple of customer hosts had told me that they'd still be available, in first class or ordered on the trolley in standard, but sadly as far as I've seen that hasn't happened.

It dies seem a waste to have those kitchens hardly used. I wonder if bidders for the next franchise will offer complimentary cooked food in first class. Personally I'd rather have it available for purchase by those who want it. The Travelling Chef was ideal.

 

[43096]

yelling into an uncaring void there- how many seats do you propose removing from each set?

Perhaps you should be calling for removal of the kitchens which use up about half a vehicle at one end of each set and replacing them with seats. The kitchens are arguably a much bigger waste being used on a handful of trains for a small number of people. Given that BR managed to get a kitchen and buffet into half a Mark 3 (in the RFMs), removing the kitchen from its current location and putting a combined kitchen/buffet in between first and standard would address both issues. Yet another utterly appalling design decision.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Perhaps you should be calling for removal of the kitchens which use up about half a vehicle at one end of each set and replacing them with seats. The kitchens are arguably a much bigger waste being used on a handful of trains for a small number of people. Given that BR managed to get a kitchen and buffet into half a Mark 3 (in the RFMs), removing the kitchen from its current location and putting a combined kitchen/buffet in between first and standard would address both issues. Yet another utterly appalling design decision.

Isn’t the kitchen in part in the ‘crumple zone’ so couldn’t be used in entirety for seats?

 

[RailWonderer]

Don’t turbos have a buffet as well? Once I did Slough - Paddington on a 165 with 3+2 (the non-stop one from Oxford) and for the novelty of it I bought 2 tonic waters at an overinflated price (trolley had a few nic nacs, barely anything on it) and once again from Reading to Pad on a turbo I did the same. Was surprised I must say.

 

[JN114]

Isn’t the kitchen in part in the ‘crumple zone’ so couldn’t be used in entirety for seats?

No, the DPTS vehicles have passenger accommodations right up to the forward doors. The so-called “crumple zone” is entirely within the driving cab area.

If a buffet were to be provided - and I’m on the fence as to whether one should or not - I’d suggest a mini-buffet would suffice.

As to where to put it, in the middle of the MeC (half first, half standard) vehicle on the 5 cars; or at the inner end of the MeF (full first) vehicle on the 9 cars. I’d keep the kitchens on all sets as I feel a lot more could be done with them with money and willpower to do so.

Don’t turbos have a buffet as well? Once I did Slough - Paddington on a 165 with 3+2 (the non-stop one from Oxford) and for the novelty of it I bought 2 tonic waters at an overinflated price (trolley had a few nic nacs, barely anything on it) and once again from Reading to Pad on a turbo I did the same. Was surprised I must say.

No, no buffets on Turbos ever. They have had trolleys at various points in their lifetime.

 

[ABB125]

Could the apparently little-used kitchens be used as a buffet?