My Idea for a Hull to Cleethorpes Rail Link

[Jorge Da Silva]

I had an idea in the Improvement to Cleethorpes thread about a potential rail link between Hull and Cleethorpes via New Holland. Could we use the old New Holland Pier extend this over the Humber Estuary and connect with the line to Hull on the other side? We could then provide an hourly service to Hull from Grimsby and Cleethorpes then the Barton Service could be cut to Grimsby Town allowing the planned Nottingham service to also be extended to Cleethorpes.

Any thoughts.

 

[NoMorePacers]

The only way this would happen is either by trying to modify the Humber Bridge to take a rail level, or by digging a tunnel under the Humber. Either option will be expensive, time-consuming and rather complicated.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Thoughts:
I have thought all along that here (and in certain select other locations where a former "rail"* link has been severed) what should have happened (and still could) is for the truncated rail service (in this case, now, between Barton and Hull) to be filled with a dedicated express bus service operated by (or on behalf of) and fully integrated with, the trains. This would be far more cost-effective than rail construction - especially where a bridge or tunnel would be required - and would offer passengers a far more seamless experience than that provided by non-integrated separate (stopping) bus routes. Through tickets, maintained connections, vehicles with luggage provision, very limited stopping patterns, terminal points at railheads, and so on.

* "rail" in this specific case meaning the former railway run ferry; but in other locations, a true rail service, now gone.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I had an idea in the Improvement to Cleethorpes thread about a potential rail link between Hull and Cleethorpes via New Holland. Could we use the old New Holland Pier extend this over the Humber Estuary and connect with the line to Hull on the other side? We could then provide an hourly service to Hull from Grimsby and Cleethorpes then the Barton Service could be cut to Grimsby Town allowing the planned Nottingham service to also be extended to Cleethorpes.

Any thoughts.

A few

Firstly, I think the lack of a rail crossing across the Humber amounts to a pretty glaring hole in the UK's rail network, and the number of vehicles crossing the Humber bridge every day must surely demonstrate a considerable latent demand.

Secondly, in terms of route, using the New Holland pier looks like it would give a pretty direct route from the centre of Hull to connect to the existing rail line. But I don't know what the engineering challenges would be. And I suspect it's no coincidence that the Humber bridge is sited almost exactly where the Humber is at its narrowest. There might be a lesson there for where any rail crossing would need to go if it was to give any kind of value for money

And regarding the service level: There's absolutely no way you'd ever justify the huge cost of building a Humber rail crossing in order to run just one train per hour on it. In order to get any kind of decent business case, the new crossing would need to carry a lot of passengers, and therefore be running a lot of trains. Also, you mention terminating services at Grimsby. Compared to the cost of building a Humber rail crossing, making capacity improvements in the Grimsby area so more services can run through to Cleethorpes is going to be peanuts. I would therefore say that any crossing would make most sense if it was part of a range of enhancements aimed at providing a decent metro network in the area (which really does currently have an appalling rail service in comparison to much of the rest of the country). As a kind-of crayonista example - I'd be wanting to use the crossing to run at least 2tph fast Hull-Cleethorpes, 2tph Hull-Scunthorpe (and perhaps Doncaster) as well as 1tph Hull-Lincoln-somewhere, and a 1tph local stopping service. That of course would however be huge investment for which there's currently no political will.

 

[NoMorePacers]

To be honest I would rather spend the money on electrifying the main line out of Hull and making it 125mph-capable.

 

[6Gman]

I had an idea in the Improvement to Cleethorpes thread about a potential rail link between Hull and Cleethorpes via New Holland. Could we use the old New Holland Pier extend this over the Humber Estuary and connect with the line to Hull on the other side? We could then provide an hourly service to Hull from Grimsby and Cleethorpes then the Barton Service could be cut to Grimsby Town allowing the planned Nottingham service to also be extended to Cleethorpes.

Any thoughts.

I used the old New Holland Pier in its final weeks of ferry operation. Even then it was decrepit. God knows what state it's in these days, if it even exists!

"Extending" the pier would create something of a hazard for shipping.

Sorry, but this is really a ludicrous idea.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

To be honest I would rather spend the money on electrifying the main line out of Hull and making it 125mph-capable.

So would I!

 

[NoMorePacers]

As well as doubling Grimsby Town-Cleethorpes and making other potential improvements. The existing rail infrastructure in the area should be up to proper standards before investing in anything new.

 

[billio]

Thoughts:
I have thought all along that here (and in certain select other locations where a former "rail"* link has been severed) what should have happened (and still could) is for the truncated rail service (in this case, now, between Barton and Hull) to be filled with a dedicated express bus service operated by (or on behalf of) and fully integrated with, the trains. This would be far more cost-effective than rail construction - especially where a bridge or tunnel would be required - and would offer passengers a far more seamless experience than that provided by non-integrated separate (stopping) bus routes. Through tickets, maintained connections, vehicles with luggage provision, very limited stopping patterns, terminal points at railheads, and so on.

* "rail" in this specific case meaning the former railway run ferry; but in other locations, a true rail service, now gone.

In the case of the Humber, doesn't the "Humber Flyer" already provide such a bus service.

 

[VT 390]

Would it not make sense to make the local rail service better before building anything new in the area as Yesterday when I travelled on the 11:50 Barton on-Humber to Cleethorpes service it was full and standing by Great Coates which means the service frequency needs increasing or have 2 coach trains operate the service, at least at times when it will more likely be busier.

 

[6Gman]

I had an idea in the Improvement to Cleethorpes thread about a potential rail link between Hull and Cleethorpes via New Holland. Could we use the old New Holland Pier extend this over the Humber Estuary and connect with the line to Hull on the other side? We could then provide an hourly service to Hull from Grimsby and Cleethorpes then the Barton Service could be cut to Grimsby Town allowing the planned Nottingham service to also be extended to Cleethorpes.

Any thoughts.

With a low-level bridge of that nature how would ships get to the Port of Goole? Which handles 2m tonnes a year!

A high-level bridge would cost millions. (Don't know how much the road bridge cost but in 2011 the Govt wrote off £150M to allow tolls to be halved.)

 

[Harpers Tate]

In the case of the Humber, doesn't the "Humber Flyer" already provide such a bus service.

"Such a...." = no.
My core point is that "such a" bus service is not a separate thing operated at the whim solely on the commercial judgement of a separate commercial organisation and subject to normal Traffic Commissioner service rules, with separate ticketing and little or no inter-co-operation. Rather, it is operated by (or on behalf of) the Railway/TOC, stopping only at major points en route (not every roadside stop) with integrated ticketing - in all respects except (clearly) the type of vehicle and the track it uses, a "virtual train service" if you will. In the Barton case, it would time exactly to coincide with train services (a virtual extension of the Barton trains) and would likely run non-stop to Hull Paragon. With through ticketing, including on to the Wolds Coast. etc. In other words aside from the track itself - exactly as if it were a train (or ferry, even).

Or, to put it another way - think of a "Rail Replacement Bus" that's permanently replacing a Railway that isn't there.

 

[DanTrain]

Would it be possible to run tram tracks across the Humber Bridge and run tram-trains? Would save building a brand-new bridge but would still provide a rail connection.

This is the speculative ideas section

 

[6Gman]

Would it be possible to run tram tracks across the Humber Bridge and run tram-trains? Would save building a brand-new bridge but would still provide a rail connection.

This is the speculative ideas section

I doubt the bridge was designed to allow for the civil engineering involved in setting tram tracks into the highway.

But I'm no engineer!

 

[DPWH]

It might be cheaper to go under the estuary in a tunnel, like the Severn Tunnel, rather than over on a bridge. Cheaper but still bloody expensive.