Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)

[Indigo Soup]

You do realise NPHR requires HS2's track between Manchester Interchange and Piccadilly, right?

In a rational world, that wouldn't matter, as it would work equally well for HS2 to use NPHR's track if the latter were built first. In the real world, it won't be built first because NPHR doesn't benefit London.

I can't fathom how a new line into London Euston is going to open up new opportunities into Southampton.

A new line which explicitly, and by design, cannot be used to run trains anywhere near Southampton.

 

[quantinghome]

I can't fathom how a new line into London Euston is going to open up new opportunities into Southampton.

Currently a journey from any city in the north to Southampton (and anywhere in south central England for the matter) involves a long, slow cross-country journey, or an inconvenient transfer by underground in London. HS2's Old Oak Common station will significantly improve this, allowing a much quicker journey with a single change. Current GWR services would give access to the Thames Valley. New services from Paddington to Southampton (which require no new infrastructure) would open up more opportunities. Leeds to Southampton would be cut to under 3 hours.

 

[LOL The Irony]

In a rational world, that wouldn't matter, as it would work equally well for HS2 to use NPHR's track if the latter were built first. In the real world, it won't be built first because NPHR doesn't benefit London.

Regardless, without it sharing HS2's track, it's not being built.

 

[Clip]

As you know I'm sceptical that anything should be done to fix the WCML. I can't fathom how a new line into London Euston is going to open up new opportunities into Southampton. Improvement up here should not be dependent on investment down south.
.

By freeing up capacity you can open up more freight paths on the WCML and thus can have more cargo going through Southampton which is one reason I can see about Southampton benefiting

 

[The Ham]

As you know I'm sceptical that anything should be done to fix the WCML. I can't fathom how a new line into London Euston is going to open up new opportunities into Southampton. Improvement up here should not be dependent on investment down south.

Capacity up here needs greater work than just downgrading intercity services because everything is transferred onto HS2 from Birmingham.

Southampton to Birmingham currently takes 2:30 at a frequency of 1.5tph.

The journey time from Southampton to Paddington takes 1:35 whilst Euston to Birmingham will take 49 minutes, now that's a total of 2:24. Now although there's a need to change at Old Oak Common that's built in by including the journey into/out of Central London.

That's probably not going to attract many people over the direct service, but it does give you another option of there's problems with XC.

From Reading you save the problems of the Basingstoke/Reading section and so you'd have the choice of 3tph from OOC to Birmingham over the 2tph using the XC services. This would have a journey time of ~1:20 Vs the existing ~1:30.

As such there's no need for any additional investment in the South for people to benefit from more services.

As such it could lead to a switch off passengers from XC to HS2, freeing up space for passengers who remain on the XC services.

However with the opening of the Southern Approach to Heathrow there could be a better journey time saving from Southampton with s 49 minutes Southampton/Woking, leaving ~50 minutes to get from Woking to OOC when the cited times are likely to be ~40 minutes.

I've pointed out before that Piccadilly could benefit from extra capacity which could be created by the removal of the long distance trains from the current services.

 

[camflyer]

I just had an idea - rebrand all HS2 plans north of Birmingham to be NPR and suddenly the whole scheme will become a lot popular.

 

[PR1Berske]

Southampton to Birmingham currently takes 2:30 at a frequency of 1.5tph.

The journey time from Southampton to Paddington takes 1:35 whilst Euston to Birmingham will take 49 minutes, now that's a total of 2:24. Now although there's a need to change at Old Oak Common that's built in by including the journey into/out of Central London.

That's probably not going to attract many people over the direct service, but it does give you another option of there's problems with XC.

From Reading you save the problems of the Basingstoke/Reading section and so you'd have the choice of 3tph from OOC to Birmingham over the 2tph using the XC services. This would have a journey time of ~1:20 Vs the existing ~1:30.

As such there's no need for any additional investment in the South for people to benefit from more services.

As such it could lead to a switch off passengers from XC to HS2, freeing up space for passengers who remain on the XC services.

However with the opening of the Southern Approach to Heathrow there could be a better journey time saving from Southampton with s 49 minutes Southampton/Woking, leaving ~50 minutes to get from Woking to OOC when the cited times are likely to be ~40 minutes.

I've pointed out before that Piccadilly could benefit from extra capacity which could be created by the removal of the long distance trains from the current services.

So is there anything HS2 can't do?

You find ways to suggest HS2, a new line into London Euston, will solve everything. Congestion, capacity, investment, growth, new connection opportunities: all this and now from one new line.

Why should anyone be convinced by such a project which is apparently without any faults at all? Something so fantastic that it can do everything you ask of it is fairytale, not reality!

 

[Geezertronic]

So is there anything HS2 can't do?

You find ways to suggest HS2, a new line into London Euston, will solve everything. Congestion, capacity, investment, growth, new connection opportunities: all this and now from one new line.

Why should anyone be convinced by such a project which is apparently without any faults at all? Something so fantastic that it can do everything you ask of it is fairytale, not reality!

You are blinded by your obvious prejudice against HS2 as shown over the years on this forum, so when people provide you with information you immediately dismiss it as fairytale. You asked the question, and do not like the reply so you resort to emotive nonsense rather than constructive conversation so that really shows you for who you are rather than proving fairytales...

 

[Ianno87]

So is there anything HS2 can't do?

You find ways to suggest HS2, a new line into London Euston, will solve everything. Congestion, capacity, investment, growth, new connection opportunities: all this and now from one new line.

But it *does* do all of those things (unless you can explain otherwise). That's why it's a great project.

Otherwise you seem to be trying to use the multiple benefits of HS2 as a reason to object to it. Which makes no sense as a rational argument.

 

[The Ham]

So is there anything HS2 can't do?

You find ways to suggest HS2, a new line into London Euston, will solve everything. Congestion, capacity, investment, growth, new connection opportunities: all this and now from one new line.

Why should anyone be convinced by such a project which is apparently without any faults at all? Something so fantastic that it can do everything you ask of it is fairytale, not reality!

I don't doubt that there's going to be things that HS2 can't do, however there's lots which it will be able to do.

What, other than the theory of smart timetabling, should we be doing?

Once we have something else to compare HS2 against then we can see what secondary benefits the two schemes have.

As it is these secondary benefits which is what a lot of people will benefit from, as although more capacity between Birmingham and many other cities is important, of for the same cost we can improve things for the wider network then that's better value for money.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Currently a journey from any city in the north to Southampton (and anywhere in south central England for the matter) involves a long, slow cross-country journey, or an inconvenient transfer by underground in London. HS2's Old Oak Common station will significantly improve this, allowing a much quicker journey with a single change. Current GWR services would give access to the Thames Valley. New services from Paddington to Southampton (which require no new infrastructure) would open up more opportunities. Leeds to Southampton would be cut to under 3 hours.

To be fair, new services from Paddington to Southampton would require additional paths into Paddington to be found. I imagine that would require some infrastructure to create the additional paths. Not sure whether you'd also need some improvements to signalling etc. between Reading and Southampton to get the extra paths there too?

But overall, your point is good that HS2 can, in principle, provide 1-change access to Southampton (and anywhere else that you can get to from Old Oak Common). And once HS2 is up and running, introducing Paddington-Southampton trains seems like a very logical thing to do.

 

[kevin_roche]

Currently a journey from any city in the north to Southampton (and anywhere in south central England for the matter) involves a long, slow cross-country journey, or an inconvenient transfer by underground in London. HS2's Old Oak Common station will significantly improve this, allowing a much quicker journey with a single change. Current GWR services would give access to the Thames Valley. New services from Paddington to Southampton (which require no new infrastructure) would open up more opportunities. Leeds to Southampton would be cut to under 3 hours.

If the Heathrow Southern Railway project goes ahead there could be a half hourly service to OOC taking 58 minutes from Basingstoke and OOC to Birmingham will take under 49 Minutes. That could be faster than driving.

To be fair, new services from Paddington to Southampton would require additional paths into Paddington to be found. I imagine that would require some infrastructure to create the additional paths. Not sure whether you'd also need some improvements to signalling etc. between Reading and Southampton to get the extra paths there too?

I think the additional paths might be possible by replacing Heathrow Express or by better use of the available track with ETCS.

 

[PR1Berske]

But it *does* do all of those things (unless you can explain otherwise). That's why it's a great project.

Otherwise you seem to be trying to use the multiple benefits of HS2 as a reason to object to it. Which makes no sense as a rational argument.

So you genuinely believe HS2, a new railway into London, can provide each and every single benefit you have named? Each and every single one without question?

How is believing that credible while disbelief is not?

 

[PR1Berske]

You are blinded by your obvious prejudice against HS2 as shown over the years on this forum, so when people provide you with information you immediately dismiss it as fairytale. You asked the question, and do not like the reply so you resort to emotive nonsense rather than constructive conversation so that really shows you for who you are rather than proving fairytales...

Ok, explain how HS2, a new railway into London, benefits the following:

*Passengers in Southampton
*Passengers in Durham
*Passengers in Swansea

I know the answer already.

 

[Ianno87]

So you genuinely believe HS2, a new railway into London, can provide each and every single benefit you have named? Each and every single one without question?

How is believing that credible while disbelief is not?

Yes, I can, and it is more than crediblw.

 

[Ianno87]

Ok, explain how HS2, a new railway into London, benefits the following:

*Passengers in Southampton
*Passengers in Durham
*Passengers in Swansea

I know the answer already.

Southampton and Swansea passengers can get to Newcastle etc. quicker by changing to HS2 services at Curzon Street, or (for Southampton people) Manchester quicker by getting on HS2 at Euston.

Durham will be served by HS2 services itself.

Simple.

 

[The Ham]

Ok, explain how HS2, a new railway into London, benefits the following:

*Passengers in Southampton
*Passengers in Durham
*Passengers in Swansea

I know the answer already.

It depends on where those passengers are going, in the case of the first two and the second two those traveling between the two will benefit.

A few other examples are

Durham to Birmingham will benefit.

Swansea to Leeds will benefit.

Southampton to Manchester/Scotland/Leeds will benefit

Name one other project pat or future, with the exception of those which first connected those places to the rail network, which benefits all those places in any way all at the same time.

Why does HS2 have to benefit everywhere, yet no other projects do?

What's the alternitve to HS2? I've asked before and will probably have to ask again.

Before you say smart timetabling you will need to give a real example of what it could possibly look like (such as by doing x it could be that you could do y). In not even asking for something which has to work, rather just something which those who are timetable planners could at least look at.

 

[The Ham]

So you genuinely believe HS2, a new railway into London, can provide each and every single benefit you have named? Each and every single one without question?

How is believing that credible while disbelief is not?

In what way are any of the past examples I've given are they not credible?

 

[PR1Berske]

In what way are any of the past examples I've given are they not credible?

A new railway line into London is not going to benefit Southampton, that's how

 

[PR1Berske]

A few other examples are

Durham to Birmingham will benefit.

Swansea to Leeds will benefit.

Southampton to Manchester/Scotland/Leeds will benefit

Specifically, how? You can't just put these headlines and leave it like that.

I get asked to provide industry standard details to the very second, so I won't accept these throwaway lines as fact.

 

[PR1Berske]

What's the alternitve to HS2? I've asked before and will probably have to ask again.

I've answered this numerous times.

Specific investment, where needed. That's it.

 

[The Ham]

A new railway line into London is not going to benefit Southampton, that's how

It will benefit some, depending on where they are going, in that those wishing to travel further north than Birmingham.

 

[The Ham]

Specifically, how? You can't just put these headlines and leave it like that.

I get asked to provide industry standard details to the very second, so I won't accept these throwaway lines as fact.

OK

Durham - Birmingham reduced journey of ~40 minutes (even if there's no direct train)

Swansea - Leeds reduced journey of ~30 minutes (with an allowance of 30 minutes to get between stations in Birmingham)

I've detailed that Southampton to Birmingham is broadly the same journey time via HS2, so Southampton to Leeds/Scotland is quicker by ~60 minutes and to Manchester is quicker by ~45 minutes.

 

[quantinghome]

I've answered this numerous times.

Specific investment, where needed. That's it.

Thanks for the explanation. For a moment I was worried you were going to suggest something incredibly vague and undefined.

 

[The Ham]

I've answered this numerous times.

Specific investment, where needed. That's it.

Like which specific projects and do they benefit all of Durham, Swansea and Southampton?

 

[The Ham]

In what way are any of the past examples I've given are they not credible?

It will benefit some, depending on where they are going, in that those wishing to travel further north than Birmingham.

OK

Durham - Birmingham reduced journey of ~40 minutes (even if there's no direct train)

Swansea - Leeds reduced journey of ~30 minutes (with an allowance of 30 minutes to get between stations in Birmingham)

I've detailed that Southampton to Birmingham is broadly the same journey time via HS2, so Southampton to Leeds/Scotland is quicker by ~60 minutes and to Manchester is quicker by ~45 minutes.

I'll ask again, in what why are these, and the claim that HS2 could allow the lengthening of up to 12 local services at Piccadilly, are not credible?

While you're at it had there or had there not been ~70% growth for rail travel between London and the North West and the West Midlands since 2009, when by the opening of Phase 1 growth was predicted to be ~50%?

What schemes do you have in mind which would be able to cater for another 70% of growth between London and these regions?

If that's too hard how about a further 30%?

 

[The Ham]

Before you say smart timetabling you will need to give a real example of what it could possibly look like (such as by doing x it could be that you could do y). In not even asking for something which has to work, rather just something which those who are tim

I get asked to provide industry standard details to the very second, so I won't accept these throwaway lines as fact.

I didn't ask you for to the second, I asked for some principles which could be looked at to see if they could work.

 

[Esker-pades]

I've answered this numerous times.

Specific investment, where needed. That's it.

<sarcasm>
Oh! I'm sorry for doubting you. That's cleared everything up.
</sarcasm>

More seriously, what specific investment? Where is it needed?

Also, I don't subscribe to your general argument that HS2 has to benefit everyone in the country.
"How does the new rolling stock for ScotRail benefit commuters on the Marshlink Line? It doesn't? Oh, well then don't spend the money."
"So, you want to build Maghull North? Does this benefit passengers travelling from Tain to Inverurie? Thought not. Pointless waste of cash."
And so on, and so on.

HS2 is of significant benefit to significant numbers of people across in difference places. The ripple effects of the additional capacity and timetable recasts mean that more people than just those from London, Manchester, Birmingham and Leeds will see improvements. So far, your responses have either been vague ("specific investment where needed") or comical ("smart/flexible timetabling") or both.

 

[6Gman]

Ok, explain how HS2, a new railway into London, benefits the following:

*Passengers in Southampton
*Passengers in Durham
*Passengers in Swansea

I know the answer already.

Southampton - unlikely.
Durham - yes.
Swansea - no.

Diverting Leeds- London traffic onto HS2 will create capacity on the ECML. Thus of benefit to Durham.

Incidentally HS2 will also offer no benefit to Penzance.

In the same way that Manchester-Blackpool electrification hasn't been of benefit to Ipswich.

 

[The Ham]

Southampton - unlikely.
Durham - yes.
Swansea - no.

Diverting Leeds- London traffic onto HS2 will create capacity on the ECML. Thus of benefit to Durham.

Incidentally HS2 will also offer no benefit to Penzance.

In the same way that Manchester-Blackpool electrification hasn't been of benefit to Ipswich.

Of course the Reading Station improvements have, to date, been of relativity little benefit to the Waterloo/Reading and, even less so, Gatwick/Reading services.