Northern ... this week has been a shambles!

[ricoblade]

Bit of a shambles this morning with the 09:56 from Retford to Sheffield, starting from Lincoln.

It showed on time on the departure board and on the National Rail and Northern apps. However, the National Rail app only showed it having left Lincoln, not having departed the next stop, Saxilby, though the Northern app showed it departing all stations before Retford on time.

A few minutes after it was supposed to have arrived "on time", it came up "delayed" on both apps (the Northern one now showing that it hadn't actually departed Saxilby et al on time after all) and disappeared off the departure board. There were also no announcements.

Anyone who knows Retford Low Level knows it is isolated from the main station buildings and any staff and going back upstairs to ask what's going on risks missing the train if it turns up. (Thinking about it now there is an Information Point on the platform but I've never had to use one before and have only just thought about it!).

About 5-10 minutes later, it reappeared on the departure board and the apps as being 38 minutes late (due to trespassers on the line) and eventually an announcement was made.

My main concern is the lack of incorrect information available to passengers and the associated lack of announcements on an isolated platform.

What is the process for the apps updating please, i.e. where do they get their information from and how the hell can the Northern app show the train having departed stations "on time" when it had never reached them?

At least I'll get a free ticket out of it.

 

[TUC]

To an extent, I agree. I don't think the issue is with the very senior management, nor do I think it's with the 'front line' staff who - for the most part - do an excellent job. There is, however, an astonishing level of incompetence in some of the day-to-day decision making which comes from what I would call 'middle management'. Poor decision making during disruption, fragmented communication, sub-optimal timetabling, the bizarre way the refurbishment programme is being handled, and so on, are all decisions that are being taken a step (or several) below the top where, it seems to me, the problems lie. Of course, that is an issue that the people at the top should be addressing but that can be much easier said than done, especially in a change- and risk-averse industry like the railway.
.

There is, however, much that some front line staff could do in improving basic communication with passengers.

 

[johntea]

The FnW used to work before the merge. And was even larger with North Wales coast work.

One of the problems is that the company still thinks that Leeds and York is the centre of the universe. The traction shortages never effect that side remarkably. You can look at the Harrogate line for a perfect example of why Northern doesn't work. The 170 introduction should of raised eyebrows that a unit completely unsuitable for the line but because many of Northern's HQ staff live on it......

And I and many others will never vote for any of ATN's conditions, they sold the best ones for pennies. More fool them.

By any chance do many of these staff live close to Hornbeam Park? The extra 'express' services in from May call at Horsforth - fair enough the West Yorkshire boundary but then Hornbeam Park which means the train has to slow down to stop there and by the time it has started up again it is in Harrogate!

The 158 is quite a nice ride on the line, even more so if it has the 'soft' seats!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

You can look at the Harrogate line for a perfect example of why Northern doesn't work. The 170 introduction should of raised eyebrows that a unit completely unsuitable for the line but because many of Northern's HQ staff live on it......

There may be a logic failure here:

- The 170 is inappropriate for the Harrogate line
- many Northern bosses live on and use the Harrogate line
- (implicit) the bosses want the best for themselves.
- so the bosses introduced an inappropriate train on the line they used.

Doesn't quite follow, does it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There may be a logic failure here:

- The 170 is inappropriate for the Harrogate line
- many Northern bosses live on and use the Harrogate line
- (implicit) the bosses want the best for themselves.
- so the bosses introduced an inappropriate train on the line they used.

Doesn't quite follow, does it?

The issue is that it is inappropriate on a technical level, rather than on a passenger level. The 170s are the nicest trains Northern presently have from a passenger perspective. They're just technically unsuited to a local stopping service.

 

[thejuggler]

Hornbeam Park serves St John Fisher School and the College - both have catchment areas into north Leeds.

 

[_toommm_]

Bit of a shambles this morning with the 09:56 from Retford to Sheffield, starting from Lincoln.

It showed on time on the departure board and on the National Rail and Northern apps. However, the National Rail app only showed it having left Lincoln, not having departed the next stop, Saxilby, though the Northern app showed it departing all stations before Retford on time.

A few minutes after it was supposed to have arrived "on time", it came up "delayed" on both apps (the Northern one now showing that it hadn't actually departed Saxilby et al on time after all) and disappeared off the departure board. There were also no announcements.

Anyone who knows Retford Low Level knows it is isolated from the main station buildings and any staff and going back upstairs to ask what's going on risks missing the train if it turns up. (Thinking about it now there is an Information Point on the platform but I've never had to use one before and have only just thought about it!).

About 5-10 minutes later, it reappeared on the departure board and the apps as being 38 minutes late (due to trespassers on the line) and eventually an announcement was made.

My main concern is the lack of incorrect information available to passengers and the associated lack of announcements on an isolated platform.

What is the process for the apps updating please, i.e. where do they get their information from and how the hell can the Northern app show the train having departed stations "on time" when it had never reached them?

At least I'll get a free ticket out of it.

It's based on it passing over certain points on the network - this could be a station, or a particular signal, or a junction. If it stops in between the two, the PIS won't know where it is until it fails to pass over a certain point, when it becomes delayed. Only once it is manually updated, or when it passes over another timing point, will it then update to be x minutes late.

Chances are your service stopped in the middle or nowhere after seeing trespassers, or being held at a red signal due to an earlier sighting of trespassers, so until it moved over the next timing point, or failed to show up at the next timing point after a certain duration, it would have technically still been on time.

 

[ricoblade]

It's based on it passing over certain points on the network - this could be a station, or a particular signal, or a junction. If it stops in between the two, the PIS won't know where it is until it fails to pass over a certain point, when it becomes delayed. Only once it is manually updated, or when it passes over another timing point, will it then update to be x minutes late.

Chances are your service stopped in the middle or nowhere after seeing trespassers, or being held at a red signal due to an earlier sighting of trespassers, so until it moved over the next timing point, or failed to show up at the next timing point after a certain duration, it would have technically still been on time.

Thanks for the reply. That sort of makes sense for the headline "on time" status but surely it would be better if it reported how late it was in reaching the next point (having not reached it). Also, it doesn't explain how the Northern app had it departed on time from stations it hadn't reached.

 

[_toommm_]

Thanks for the reply. That sort of makes sense for the headline "on time" status but surely it would be better if it reported how late it was in reaching the next point (having not reached it). Also, it doesn't explain how the Northern app had it departed on time from stations it hadn't reached.

Some areas don't report properly, which is why on RealTimeTrains it can come up as 'No Report'. On the absence of any real data, it may have just been extrapolated if it should have left the station. Most apps do this at some of the more rural stations, and some stations like Shrewsbury I've found, will report a train as on time on the PIS even when it's 5 minutes late.