Northern ... this week has been a shambles!

[Gems]

Daft question time, does anyone think that the current Northern franchise is too big and complex for one company to understand or allow them to get a grip of? I could see that two smaller franchises would provide more focus on us the passengers and hopefully stop the management focusing on running services to the profitable Marque lines and stations when there are problems and allow them to focus more on all the lines but still serve the unglamorous 1tp2h or unprofitable lines when things inevitably go tits up rather than pinching a driver to cover a Manchester Airport Marque service so a Blackpool or a Kirkby service don't run instead

Yes it is too big. It was a big mistake bringing the former FNW franchise in with the old ATN. How on earth can you make it work with such a complex variation in terms and conditions of train crew. Another total failure by the DFT and aren't people paying the price.

 

[Eccles1983]

The FnW used to work before the merge. And was even larger with North Wales coast work.

One of the problems is that the company still thinks that Leeds and York is the centre of the universe. The traction shortages never effect that side remarkably. You can look at the Harrogate line for a perfect example of why Northern doesn't work. The 170 introduction should of raised eyebrows that a unit completely unsuitable for the line but because many of Northern's HQ staff live on it......

And I and many others will never vote for any of ATN's conditions, they sold the best ones for pennies. More fool them.

 

[Mogster]

Have you noticed how in general you don't get this problem on the east side. I'm not saying it runs perfectly all the time, but in general unless there is a serious problem the east side works quite well.

As a daily user of West of Manchester services I’ve had this impression for some time. The East side and Yorkshire routes seem to have far better stock and fewer problems with shortforming.

 

[Aivilo]

Northern are bottom of the pile on the west and subsequently the line mentioned is aswell. Other routes will take precedent in even the most minimal of failure's.

 

[mandub]

Isn't harmonisation of two different pay and conditions easier said than done?

Presumably the unions would want all the best bits of ATN conditions and all the best bits of FNW conditions to be applied to everyone

Or alternative unions and staff wouldn't be happy if one side had lower pay rises to enable the other side to catch up?

From our point of view on the west, we think ASLEF are about to sell us out to harmonise our conditions in the direction of how the East operates.
Details seemingly to be released end of this week.

 

[Elecman]

From our point of view on the west, we think ASLEF are about to sell us out to harmonise our conditions in the direction of how the East operates.
Details seemingly to be released end of this week.

Your union ma6 have come to some proposal agreement with Northern but it’s a democracy and f you don’t like it don’t vote to accept it

 

[mandub]

Your union ma6 have come to some proposal agreement with Northern but it’s a democracy and f you don’t like it don’t vote to accept it

Well exactly. That's the bit we think is going to be the sellout.
We think any change to the T&C of Western depots (ex FNW) should be voted on by Western drivers alone.
But rumour is that ASLEF aren't going to allow that and the vote will be across both East & West, and if so we'll be out voted by the East.
Hope it's just the usual railway grapevine getting it wrong....

 

[LowLevel]

Or do a Greater Anglia style ASLEF deal - the members will hate it so cut out the middle man and don't bother giving them a vote at all

 

[Gems]

Well exactly. That's the bit we think is going to be the sellout.
We think any change to the T&C of Western depots (ex FNW) should be voted on by Western drivers alone.
But rumour is that ASLEF aren't going to allow that and the vote will be across both East & West, and if so we'll be out voted by the East.
Hope it's just the usual railway grapevine getting it wrong....

ASLEF is a sellout union, always has been.

 

[fowler9]

Daft question time, does anyone think that the current Northern franchise is too big and complex for one company to understand or allow them to get a grip of? I could see that two smaller franchises would provide more focus on us the passengers and hopefully stop the management focusing on running services to the profitable Marque lines and stations when there are problems and allow them to focus more on all the lines but still serve the unglamorous 1tp2h or unprofitable lines when things inevitably go tits up rather than pinching a driver to cover a Manchester Airport Marque service so a Blackpool or a Kirkby service don't run instead

From my experience on the Cheshire Lines route on a Sunday the Manchester Airport fasts are the first to get canned.

 

[Ken H]

Daft question time, does anyone think that the current Northern franchise is too big and complex for one company to understand or allow them to get a grip of? I could see that two smaller franchises would provide more focus on us the passengers and hopefully stop the management focusing on running services to the profitable Marque lines and stations when there are problems and allow them to focus more on all the lines but still serve the unglamorous 1tp2h or unprofitable lines when things inevitably go tits up rather than pinching a driver to cover a Manchester Airport Marque service so a Blackpool or a Kirkby service don't run instead

they need 3

Northumbria, based on Newcastle

Yorkshire, based on Leeds

NorthWest, based on manchester

bung the long routes like Settle/Carlisle and Newcastle/Carlisle, maybe stuff via hebden bridge also, onto trans pennine

 

[joke2711]

Just to add a little further to my original post.

On Friday I spoke to the same Merseyrail staff at Kirkby who were trying to get some form of onward transport arranged.

They were told over the phone that a replacement bus was going to be sought with no indication of times for this. I was stood with them whilst they had this conversation.

Northern Assist meanwhile on Twitter stated that no replacement travel was available (see attached picture)

I took the decision to taxi to Rainford (Cost £13) as there was no promise that the 1850 (delayed) would be running to and from Kirkby.

After my taxi had left (booked by Merseyrail staff) they inform me that 6 taxi's arrived at the station, which they had no knowledge about that were sent from Northern. Lamentable and Laughable at the same time ...

 

[Gems]

The FnW used to work before the merge. And was even larger with North Wales coast work.

One of the problems is that the company still thinks that Leeds and York is the centre of the universe. The traction shortages never effect that side remarkably. You can look at the Harrogate line for a perfect example of why Northern doesn't work. The 170 introduction should of raised eyebrows that a unit completely unsuitable for the line but because many of Northern's HQ staff live on it......

And I and many others will never vote for any of ATN's conditions, they sold the best ones for pennies. More fool them.

The 170 gearbox is designed for higher speeds than what the line speed of the Harrogate line is. Result is that it uses up a rather large amount of oil.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 170 gearbox is designed for higher speeds than what the line speed of the Harrogate line is. Result is that it uses up a rather large amount of oil.

This goes back to my view that it would have been far, far better for Northern to order new rolling stock as a direct replacement for Pacers, either with electric or mechanical transmission, designed for fast boarding, alighting and high performance departures from frequent stations, and to run Northern Connect with poshed-up[1] Classes 158 and 170 that are actually designed for regional express work, with a view to longer-term replacement. Look at how successful the Class 172s have been in revolutionising the Snow Hill lines into a high quality local network. (See, I managed not to say S-Bahn....oh...oops! )

[1] Look at the standard of the TPE 185 refurb for what I mean by "poshed up", not just new seat covers (or worse, ironing boards) and horrible cheap blueish LED lighting.

 

[Starmill]

Complexity of diagrams is not the problem, it's staff sickness. It's notable that this is a problem also afflicting South Western Railway at the moment - both companies are now seeing a side effect of the strikes through the autumn.

What do you mean? How are things effects of previous strikes being manifested now, and how are they similar between the two?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Complexity of diagrams may not be the root cause, but it certainly is the reason why the impact is so widespread. If, as I said, a driver and guard just did Kirkbys all morning with the same unit, if they didn't show or the unit failed you know you just need a bus or taxis for Kirkby. You don't suddenly find yourself cancelling a service the other side of Manchester as a result.

And similarly, if the Kirkbys ended up running late, you could just let them run late until a suitable time to sort the mess out, rather than having to worry about the knock-on impact of that to another part of the network, or just allow the recovery time to naturally tidy it up as the day goes along.

There is clearly something in it given that GTR/Southern has put a fair bit of effort into this form of simplification - and there is little more complex than the services out of London Bridge and Vic, with splitting and joining all over the place, which they are trying to reduce.

 

[Eccles1983]

If you had some poor soul on repetitive Kirkby trips then you would increase the risk of incident substantially.

Repetitive work is a big risk trigger. And from September to January if I was given a docket with solely Kirkby work I would book sick instantly. It's treacherous down that line.

It's also two depots work, and also a massive waste of crew, as it would result in 30 mins turnarounds in the bay at Wigan, in an area of ab, with freight mixed in.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The FnW used to work before the merge. And was even larger with North Wales coast work.

One of the problems is that the company still thinks that Leeds and York is the centre of the universe. The traction shortages never effect that side remarkably. You can look at the Harrogate line for a perfect example of why Northern doesn't work. The 170 introduction should of raised eyebrows that a unit completely unsuitable for the line but because many of Northern's HQ staff live on it......

And I and many others will never vote for any of ATN's conditions, they sold the best ones for pennies. More fool them.

Back in ATN days (shortly after Arriva rescued MTL/Northern Spirit) several routes on the Yorkshire side had months of near-complete bus replacements due to staff shortages. So it isn't always sunnier this side of the hills!

The routes most affected were those not serving Leeds (Wakefield-Knottingley was hit particularly hard), naturally.

 

[Philip]

Why the anger towards Northern itself? The ground staff, including drivers; guards; booking office and dispatch staff all work hard in quite difficult circumstances, sometimes very! The senior management pretty much have their hands tied by the government. Shouldn't it be the DfT who come in for most of the criticism, rather than Northern?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why the anger towards Northern itself? The ground staff, including drivers; guards; booking office and dispatch staff all work hard in quite difficult circumstances, sometimes very! The senior management pretty much have their hands tied by the government. Shouldn't it be the DfT who come in for most of the criticism, rather than Northern?

No. Northern are incompetent and shoddy. You can run a decent operation on a budget - much as I have little time for the bluster that tends to come from Alex Hynes about things being better than they actually are, the previous Northern franchise largely managed that.

 

[AK1982]

Getting worse on northern by the week, numerous cancellations and amendments!

The 7.09 northern connect service from Liverpool lime street to Manchester oxford road has been short formed 5 days out of the last seven and this week with the 06.41 East Midlands service to Norwich not running hundreds of people on the route have been unable to board.
Quite often Birchwood and Irlam stops omitted like today.

The old transpenmine service was 6 carriages to go to 2 is a disgrace.

 

[NoMorePacers]

I'd laugh if I didn't live on the Northern network.

 

[Mathew S]

Why the anger towards Northern itself? The ground staff, including drivers; guards; booking office and dispatch staff all work hard in quite difficult circumstances, sometimes very! The senior management pretty much have their hands tied by the government. Shouldn't it be the DfT who come in for most of the criticism, rather than Northern?

To an extent, I agree. I don't think the issue is with the very senior management, nor do I think it's with the 'front line' staff who - for the most part - do an excellent job. There is, however, an astonishing level of incompetence in some of the day-to-day decision making which comes from what I would call 'middle management'. Poor decision making during disruption, fragmented communication, sub-optimal timetabling, the bizarre way the refurbishment programme is being handled, and so on, are all decisions that are being taken a step (or several) below the top where, it seems to me, the problems lie. Of course, that is an issue that the people at the top should be addressing but that can be much easier said than done, especially in a change- and risk-averse industry like the railway.

The 7.09 northern connect service...

Doesn't exist yet because Northern Connect has yet to launch, and won't until (at least) December 2019.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To an extent, I agree. I don't think the issue is with the very senior management, nor do I think it's with the 'front line' staff who - for the most part - do an excellent job. There is, however, an astonishing level of incompetence in some of the day-to-day decision making which comes from what I would call 'middle management'. Poor decision making during disruption, fragmented communication, sub-optimal timetabling, the bizarre way the refurbishment programme is being handled, and so on, are all decisions that are being taken a step (or several) below the top where, it seems to me, the problems lie. Of course, that is an issue that the people at the top should be addressing but that can be much easier said than done, especially in a change- and risk-averse industry like the railway.

Yes, this. This is the fundamental difference between old Northern (which was largely managing to do quite well out of a very small budget and undersized fleet) and new Northern (which, despite having more funding and a new fleet on the way, seems to be lurching from crisis to crisis).

The front line staff are largely the same - they aren't the problem, though they may well be giving poorer customer service if demoralised due to poor management.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'd laugh if I didn't live on the Northern network.

I use four Northern services a day, and I have to say.... It really isn't that bad for me! I guess I must be lucky living on the right side of the Pennines.....

 

[Llama]

Most of the experienced senior management jumped ship around the time of the last direct award to the old Northern Rail (Serco-Abellio) franchise. I will leave it up to others to decide for themselves whether or not this was a factor in the descent into shambles and constant fire-fighting.

 

[Plethora]

Most of the experienced senior management jumped ship around the time of the last direct award to the old Northern Rail (Serco-Abellio) franchise. I will leave it up to others to decide for themselves whether or not this was a factor in the descent into shambles and constant fire-fighting.

That's what I'm curious about. Hard to judge ATN (NbA?) after the mess they were thrown into to start the franchise.

 

[AK1982]

Doesn't exist yet because Northern Connect has yet to launch, and won't until (at least) December 2019.[/QUOTE]

Ok I didn’t realise that. Do you know what this 07.09 service is then please as this replaced the old TPE Scarborough service which was 6 carriages.

The 7.09 appears to be similar to the other northern Liverpool to airport services through the day but the 7.09 goes only to oxford road and calls at Widnes and Irlam??

This service should be more than 2 carriages as the old service was very busy with 6

 

[Mathew S]

Doesn't exist yet because Northern Connect has yet to launch, and won't until (at least) December 2019.

Ok I didn’t realise that. Do you know what this 07.09 service is then please as this replaced the old TPE Scarborough service which was 6 carriages.

The 7.09 appears to be similar to the other northern Liverpool to airport services through the day but the 7.09 goes only to oxford road and calls at Widnes and Irlam??

This service should be more than 2 carriages as the old service was very busy with 6

It looks as though it's just an extra service put in for the morning peak. Certainly doesn't seem to be part of the usual pattern. As you've said, the 0709 will be suffering from the lack of the 0647 EM service. Perhaps try the 0628 or 0728 Crewe via Manchester services? Or, failing that, hopefully the 0709 will be more palatable once the EM 0647 returns to the fold. There's also a TPE 0656 to Scarborough via Man Victoria, if that's any use.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Why is the 06:47 EMT only running Mondays?