ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[47271]

Personally speaking I've had no power car issues on service trains which are running all day. Any issues I've had are with ones that have been in a depot for a while or shut down due to lack of shore supply. I have had alot of issues with the coaches however. Mainly leaking roofs and toilet header tanks, loss of 3 phase supply, faulty central locking and air leaks. Having driven then regularly now it's fair to say that in classic form these trains are "done". However the extent of the refurb shouldn't be underestimated. It really is a new train.

Well, that's a glimmer of hope. If the returbs come up with the goods then there's a long term future once we've moved on from the old bangers.

Maybe I've been unlucky, but reliability, or crew availability, is so bad at the moment that I haven't set foot on an HST since 8 March, and I've travelled on plenty of services booked for them.

 

[43096]

Given the high levels of reported faults with the GWML Automatic Train Protection system reported by Modern Railways in relation to the IETs (something like a quarter of all technical incidents recorded are linked to the ATP equipment), it seems reasonable to assume that ATP also accounted for a substantial proportion of the issues with the GWR HSTs.

The East Coast HSTs do not have ATP and, in addition, their duty cycles are rather different from many of those that the GWR sets were subjected to, lots of long-distance causing, as opposed to services with frequent start-stop runs between closely-spaced stations.

Still making excuses for GWR’s poor maintenance, I see. Given that their 150s, 158s and Electrostars are all bottom of the pile for reliability, what’s your GWR spin on that?

 

[JohnR]

Aye it seems that the reliability figures for GWR HST fleet is a lot poorer than LNER. Is the consensus that they need a bit of work or just some time to bed in? For what it is worth I have never found reliability in the years I have travelled the HML to be an issue the teams seem to look after the stock pretty well. I am sure they will get to grip with the HST in the same way the did the 170’s. However if the power cars are in poor shape might be a struggle?

Part of the reason for that is that they do different duties. GWR HSTs dont really have nice long non-stop runs like the LNER ones do.

 

[scotraildriver]

The ATP Speedo is still causing issues for Scotrail. It is being completely removed.

 

[jimm]

Still making excuses for GWR’s poor maintenance, I see. Given that their 150s, 158s and Electrostars are all bottom of the pile for reliability, what’s your GWR spin on that?

And you're still trying to blame First Group for everything that ever goes wrong with anything.

 

[BRX]

On the positive saw one of the refurb sets leave Waverley. Nice to see and listened out for the rear power car at fixed revs (thanks for that inside on it’s power generation)

A myth seems to have developed on this thread that the rear car is just providing electrical supply power. I'm pretty sure that you are not going to hear the rear car at 'fixed revs' while a train is accelerating; it will be providing traction just like the front one.

 

[nat67]

Part of the reason for that is that they do different duties. GWR HSTs dont really have nice long non-stop runs like the LNER ones do.

What so Reading-Exeter is not a long non-stop run then? I think you might find they do for example the 0900 1A82 Penzance-Paddington is non-stop Exeter-Reading.

 

[Rick1984]

How long could the carriages last after their refurb? When the Power Cars are knackered could you stick a bi-mode locomotive on one end use the other as a DVT?
I appreciate it would probably be easier just up buy new units.

 

[mcmad]

The East Coast HSTs do not have ATP and, in addition, their duty cycles are rather different from many of those that the GWR sets were subjected to, lots of long-distance causing, as opposed to services with frequent start-stop runs between closely-spaced stations.

Part of the reason for that is that they do different duties. GWR HSTs dont really have nice long non-stop runs like the LNER ones do.

So which is it?

 

[scotraildriver]

A myth seems to have developed on this thread that the rear car is just providing electrical supply power. I'm pretty sure that you are not going to hear the rear car at 'fixed revs' while a train is accelerating; it will be providing traction just like the front one.

Because the rear power car is providing ETS it runs at a higher rpm than the front one. It starts revving above about notch 3 on the power controller so leaving a station it sounds like it's idling. Once the driver opens up it revs the same as the front one and provides equal traction power.

 

[GrimShady]

Because the rear power car is providing ETS it runs at a higher rpm than the front one. It starts revving above about notch 3 on the power controller so leaving a station it sounds like it's idling. Once the driver opens up it revs the same as the front one and provides equal traction power.

I was under the impression the forward PC produced slightly more power in order to stop the couplers surging when the rear starts to push.

 

[hexagon789]

Because the rear power car is providing ETS it runs at a higher rpm than the front one. It starts revving above about notch 3 on the power controller so leaving a station it sounds like it's idling. Once the driver opens up it revs the same as the front one and provides equal traction power.

I believe that the rear power car idles at Notch 2 when supplying ETS, thus the sequence is:

Off - Front: 750rpm/rear: 1,000rpm
Notch 1 - Front: 750rpm/rear: 1,000rpm
Notch 2 - Both: 1,000rpm
Notch 3 - Both: 1,145rpm
Notch 4 - Both: 1,390rpm
Notch 5: Both 1,500rpm

 

[hexagon789]

I was under the impression the forward PC produced slightly more power in order to stop the couplers surging when the rear starts to push.

I believe it does this purely by virtue of not supplying ETS.

 

[GrimShady]

I believe it does this purely by virtue of not supplying ETS.

Incidental or by design?

 

[David M]

My son got one of the refurbished units from Aberdeen to Edinburgh on Monday (when I asked him what type of train he got, he said it was grey-ish outside with push button doors so I have no reason to doubt his thoughts). The one thing he specifically mentioned was how jerky it was (as he put it) going round corners. His previous journeys have either been 170s or classic hsts so this was his first time on a 'new' set and, similarly, this was the first time he had noticed issues going round bends. Anyone else noticed a jerkiness or noticeable body roll in a refurbished coach?

 

[hexagon789]

Incidental or by design?

Well I imagine the designers would know a loco supplying ETS supplies less traction power than one not supplying ETS but beyond that I've no idea. It seems more logical that they would have thought about this, certainly when two locos are powering a rake with one each end in push-pull mode it's always ideal to have the front one pulling slightly more than the rear one is pushing.

 

[scotraildriver]

The only technical reason for the rear power car providing ETS is that if it stops working you can switch to the leading power car on the move. You can't establish ETS at the rear remotely. Nothing to stop.a train running with ETS at the front.

 

[BRX]

when two locos are powering a rake with one each end in push-pull mode it's always ideal to have the front one pulling slightly more than the rear one is pushing.

Why is this?

 

[hexagon789]

Why is this?

That is a very good question actually - I don't know the proper reason, perhaps someone else can enlighten us.

At a guess perhaps to maintain coupler tension and reduce the chances of snatching?

 

[BRX]

Because the rear power car is providing ETS it runs at a higher rpm than the front one. It starts revving above about notch 3 on the power controller so leaving a station it sounds like it's idling. Once the driver opens up it revs the same as the front one and provides equal traction power.

Wouldn't you be on notch 3 or higher pretty soon after starting moving anyway though?

 

[JohnR]

What so Reading-Exeter is not a long non-stop run then? I think you might find they do for example the 0900 1A82 Penzance-Paddington is non-stop Exeter-Reading.

I was unaware that every service for the last 40 years on the GW has been Reading-Exeter non-stop.

 

[nat67]

I was unaware that every service for the last 40 years on the GW has been Reading-Exeter non-stop.

I did not say every service I have given you an example of one which does run non-stop.

 

[jingsmonty]

I see that 1T62 (1725 Inverness to Glasgow QS) is an HST today. Typical, as I was on it yesterday & it was a 170....

 

[jingsmonty]

Wouldn't you be on notch 3 or higher pretty soon after starting moving anyway though?

You're not allowed to take Notch 5 if any part of the train is within the station

 

[jingsmonty]

The only technical reason for the rear power car providing ETS is that if it stops working you can switch to the leading power car on the move. You can't establish ETS at the rear remotely. Nothing to stop.a train running with ETS at the front.

Exactly correct. There must have been some other reason for the failure, such as loss of air or a control system issue. I'd have thought that running on 1 power car wouldn't have crippledthe set like this

 

[hexagon789]

You're not allowed to take Notch 5 if any part of the train is within the station

I thought that was a former GWR (then FGW) instruction or has it passed to ScotRail now despite being abolished down south?

 

[jingsmonty]

I believe that the rear power car idles at Notch 2 when supplying ETS, thus the sequence is:

Off - Front: 750rpm/rear: 1,000rpm
Notch 1 - Front: 750rpm/rear: 1,000rpm
Notch 2 - Both: 1,000rpm
Notch 3 - Both: 1,145rpm
Notch 4 - Both: 1,390rpm
Notch 5: Both 1,500rpm

This sounds correct. I've shunted a set with the ETS running from the front & you can't hear the engine note change until you're on notch 3 or above

 

[jingsmonty]

I thought that was a former GWR (then FGW) instruction or has it passed to ScotRail now despite being abolished down south?

I was told this by the DTM that passed me out on HSTs last year

 

[hexagon789]

This sounds correct. I've shunted a set with the ETS running from the front & you can't hear the engine note change until you're on notch 3 or above

Those are the details for Valenta power cars, but I would imagine MTUs are the same.

I was told this by the DTM that passed me out on HSTs last year

I don't doubt it, I'm just curious why they've carried over a now obsolete FGW instruction.

I don't believe any other TOCs had such a restriction.

 

[jingsmonty]

Those are the details for Valenta power cars, but I would imagine MTUs are the same.



I don't doubt it, I'm just curious why they've carried over a now obsolete FGW instruction.

I don't believe any other TOCs had such a restriction.

To be honest, I can see the logic in a station like Glasgow QS - an HST (even a modern engine like an MTU) can create a lot of clag!