London Terminal arrival time restriction for services calling at multiple London Terminals

[KingJ]

I had a quick look around the fares guide and ran a search, but I couldn't find anything specific on this particular circumstance. Apologies if this is a duplicate query!

When a ticket has a restriction code that limits the arrival time into London Terminals (e.g. C0), does that restriction apply to the first London Terminals station that the train calls at or to the destination London Terminal of the train and/or passenger?

For example, the 0851 from Tunbridge Wells to Charing Cross arrives into London Bridge at 0939, Waterloo East at 0945 and Charing Cross at 0952. Although many of the direct fares on this service's calling pattern have departure time restrictions on the Off Peak Day Return fares which mean this service is not valid with that fare, some connecting fares instead carry the C0 restriction - "Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 which arrive at London Terminals or Kensington Olympia before 09:50.".

Given this, for someone holding a fare with a C0 restriction, is it valid to travel on this service to Charing Cross - arriving after the 0950 restriction? It definitely wouldn't appear to be valid for London Bridge or Waterloo East as a destination, but it's not clear how the restriction applies to someone travelling through a London Terminal station to reach a later London Terminal, arriving at a 'valid' time.

 

[alistairlees]

The train arrives at a London Terminal (London Bridge) before 09.50. That it then arrives at another London Terminal after 09.50 is not relevant - it has already arrived at one (through calling at it). Others may care to differ... I suspect that different journey planners might interpret this differently as there is no clear guidance on its implementation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The train arrives at a London Terminal (London Bridge) before 09.50. That it then arrives at another London Terminal after 09.50 is not relevant - it has already arrived at one (through calling at it). Others may care to differ... I suspect that different journey planners might interpret this differently as there is no clear guidance on its implementation.

The 3 things you can implement in an electronic restriction are:

Bar based on where the passenger boards
Bar an entire specified train throughout (also can have an exception for boarding at a certain station)
Bar a train that calls at a given station in the future in a certain time range

This one would be the third one, so if it calls at any London terminal at the time specified it's peak regardless of when it calls at others.

 

[yorkie]

@Bletchleyite where did you get that from? You're almost right, but not quite.

The electronic data restrictions for fares can apply to:
- The final destination of the train; and
- The location you alight from a train
- Any specified train (not applicable here)
- Where you board the train (not applicable here)

Intermediate stops are irrelevant.

Future stops (other than the final destination) are irrelevant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

@Bletchleyite where did you get that from? You're almost right, but not quite.

The electronic data restrictions for fares can apply to:
- The final destination of the train; and
- The location you alight from a train
- Any specified train

Intermediate stops are irrelevant.

Future stops (other than the final destination) are irrelevant.

Where you board, not where you alight, surely? Or is it both?

I stand corrected on the others, though.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I had a quick look around the fares guide and ran a search, but I couldn't find anything specific on this particular circumstance. Apologies if this is a duplicate query!

When a ticket has a restriction code that limits the arrival time into London Terminals (e.g. C0), does that restriction apply to the first London Terminals station that the train calls at or to the destination London Terminal of the train and/or passenger?

For example, the 0851 from Tunbridge Wells to Charing Cross arrives into London Bridge at 0939, Waterloo East at 0945 and Charing Cross at 0952. Although many of the direct fares on this service's calling pattern have departure time restrictions on the Off Peak Day Return fares which mean this service is not valid with that fare, some connecting fares instead carry the C0 restriction - "Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 which arrive at London Terminals or Kensington Olympia before 09:50.".

Given this, for someone holding a fare with a C0 restriction, is it valid to travel on this service to Charing Cross - arriving after the 0950 restriction? It definitely wouldn't appear to be valid for London Bridge or Waterloo East as a destination, but it's not clear how the restriction applies to someone travelling through a London Terminal station to reach a later London Terminal, arriving at a 'valid' time.

The data used by booking engines indicates that you can alight from any train at Charing Cross after 09:49. Given that all trains that arrive at Charing Cross call previously at Waterloo East and London Bridge, the intention here is clear - you may alight at Charing Cross at or after 09:50 regardless of the time the train previously arrived at or called at another London Terminal. If they wanted to, there is nothing stopping them from changing the electronic data to be in line with what it is for, for example, City Thameslink, where the arrival time restriction is 04:30-10:00 in the data.

This is in line with what I would say the legal position is, anyway, since the restriction text can certainly be read in different ways, and thus the most favourable interpretation for the passenger prevails.

The train arrives at a London Terminal (London Bridge) before 09.50. That it then arrives at another London Terminal after 09.50 is not relevant - it has already arrived at one (through calling at it). Others may care to differ... I suspect that different journey planners might interpret this differently as there is no clear guidance on its implementation.

I would be surprised if any journey planner implemented it incorrectly, in terms of selling C0-restricted Off-Peak tickets on the service in question, for alighting at Charing Cross, but not earlier stations.

 

[yorkie]

Where you board, not where you alight, surely? Or is it both?

It can be both but we are only considering the arrival time in this particular example

So if a train arrives at LBG at an invalid time, but arrives CHX at a valid time, then planning a journey into LBG will be deemed invalid, while planning a journey into CHX will be deemed valid.

 

[kieron]

I think you mean "valid" rather than "invalid" there.

Personally speaking, if I was using a train like that one with a ticket like that one, I'd get an itinerary from a web site or app which includes a change at Charing Cross. There's always a chance that you may meet a member of rail staff with a different opinion about off peak tickets.

 

[alistairlees]

It can be both but we are only considering the arrival time in this particular example

So if your train arrive at LBG at an invalid time, but arrives CHX at a valid time, then planning a journey into LBG will not be deemed invalid, while planning a journey into CHX will be valid.

Certainly that seems to be the behaviour on GWR.com. Look at the 09.11 from Dartford to London Charing Cross (calling at London Bridge and Waterloo East). The £18.30 Off Peak Day Return route Plus High Speed shows when planning a journey to Charing Cross (arrive after 10.00), but not when planning a journey to London Bridge (arrive before 10.00)

 

[KingJ]

Thank you to everyone for your replies here - it's definitely interesting trying to definitively work this out!

Up until recently, it was possible to get an online itinerary for this ticket (attached) - departing on the 08:48 from Leigh (arriving Tonbridge 08:53) and picking up this service at 09:01 from Tonbridge. However, from what I can tell an unpublished restriction was recently added to the C0 validity code which prevents arrival at Tonbridge between 04:30 and 09:15, and therefore it no longer shows up on online itineraries. Instead, the first service on which an Off Peak Day Return is valid is listed as the 09:22 from Leigh (arriving Tonbridge 09:27) and picking up the 09:31 departure (arriving Charing Cross 10:20).

Given the other commentary on this forum on the applicability (or rather, the non-applicability!) of unpublished restrictions this is what made me curious about the application of the published restriction to this fare - without an itinerary from a booking engine it becomes a bit more difficult to prove that a fare is valid, especially with the ambiguity around passing through other London Terminals at an otherwise invalid time.

Given this and the replies above, it seems reasonable to assume that;

• Time restrictions on arrival apply to the arrival of the passenger at their intended destination, not where they pass through previously on a 'reasonable' route.
• If this is not correct, and the intent is that the restriction applies to the first station within the group that the service on which the passenger is travelling arrives at, the ambiguity of the restriction means that the Consumer Rights Act (2015) considers the interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer to prevail which is based on the arrival at the passenger's destination.
• Unpublished restrictions, and the consequent unavailability of the fare in booking engines, have no bearing on the actual validity of the fare itself.

On the other hand, trying to prove the validity when challenged wouldn't be easy - especially when the same fare isn't offered by an online booking engine. The other bit that makes me uncertain is the reference to 'trains' in the C0 restriction - making the restriction apply to the train rather than the passenger's journey. I could see this making a train that terminates at London Bridge invalid for this fare, even if the passenger's journey then continued to Charing Cross arriving after the restriction's time?

Thanks again for all your replies

 

[big all]

go via redhill get in to london bridge at 9.50

 

[Paul Kelly]

Time restrictions on arrival apply to the arrival of the passenger at their intended destination,

Arrival time restrictions apply at any station where you alight from a train. It isn't just the final destination. E.g. in your example you could alight at London Bridge and change for a later train to Charing Cross, but that would still be disallowed. In addition, journey planners (apart from the one behind the new c2c website, although they may have fixed it by now) also apply arrival time restrictions to the ultimate destination of the train, even if you alight before that station. However that's not relevant to your example.

 

[Nick66]

Certainly that seems to be the behaviour on GWR.com. Look at the 09.11 from Dartford to London Charing Cross (calling at London Bridge and Waterloo East). The £18.30 Off Peak Day Return route Plus High Speed shows when planning a journey to Charing Cross (arrive after 10.00), but not when planning a journey to London Bridge (arrive before 10.00)

I may be missing something but why would anyone want a route plus High Speed from Dartford to Charing Cross? Oyster or contactless is only £7.60 peak or £4.40 off-peak one way.

 

[yorkie]

I may be missing something but why would anyone want a route plus High Speed from Dartford to Charing Cross? Oyster or contactless is only £7.60 peak or £4.40 off-peak one way.

A paper fare still needs to exist for this journey and I don't think it would be appropriate to decide not to set fares for certain flows on the basis of an assumption that the fare wouldn't be appropriate for someone.

I don't understand what point you are making and I think you have missed the point of the post you are quoting.