EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Groningen]

Those Sunday papers give a lot attention of the march. Not a lot!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Given that they are in a pro-remain area (by 2016 results) it doesn't count for that much anyway.

Riiiiight. So, if I've understood you correctly. First, the views of remainers don't count because apparently, we're all bots. Then after that got debunked, our views don't count because, apparently, we all live in London. Lovely!

 

[nlogax]

Riiiiight. So, if I've understood you correctly. First, the views of remainers don't count because apparently, we're all bots. Then after that got debunked, our views don't count because, apparently, we all live in London. Lovely!

Considering every one of his posts have all the basis in reality of a Grayling ferry contract, I feel Jonny's merely here for the comedy. That's how I try to read it anyway.

 

[DarloRich]

You are aware of the dozens of coaches that travelled from every corner of Great Britain with folk for the march? The train loads from the west country and the north west? The families from every shire in the land?

This wasn't a gathering of Hampsteadians, the Notting Hill set, and Hoxton hipsters. It was a rally of folk from all walks of life, all social strata, all political hues.

Indeed! Just near us were people from the west country, Birmingham, wales (no idea how you pronounce where they were from!) and a couple from Scotland. These were the ones we talked to.

We know people who traveled on coaches from leeds Sunderland york and Darlington. ( no chance of meeting them) The train down was full of people from Brum and stoke and crewe. Peolle hsd stickers and placards so it was fairly obvious where they were off to!

They were all ages and all social strata. Must have taken some organising to get all those bots in one place! The accents must have took practice!

Ps also this was the best behaved, best mannered, and best atmosphere I have seen on any political march.

 

[edwin_m]

Not necessarily. I can only speak for myself, but I took no notice of either campaign, having already decided long ago that I wasn't happy for this country to remain in the EU. I simply ticked the box next to where it said leave. I didn't specify how I wanted the government to achieve it.

That's undoubtedly true of some people. But enough people may well think differently to overturn a margin of 52:48 once the truth is know about what being outside the EU will be like.

We just don't know. So why not ask the people again?

 

[Esker-pades]

The last few pages of this thread have been awful. I enjoy debating pros and cons of the EU and Brexit, but bleating about liberal tears or gammon doesn't help anyone. It reduces proper and substantive debate to a slanging match. "It's funny how sad you are" is not an argument, it's the primary school playground level of 'discussion' (put in quotation marks because I'm using it in a very loose form) and pathetic. Maturity is required, but so very much lacking in this country at the moment.

 

[furnessvale]

If May does stand down then that makes her the shortest reigned PM since...not the foggiest but I caught it on the news and it was many moons ago. Someone will know. Never mind, we have the problem of who will take over and what they can do. Even if it's the most venomous hard-liner, they still have to get something through parliament, and that means if parliament "takes over" this week it's gonna be impossible to get no-deal through even if it's currently the legal option. But at least they can bank on the DUP, can't they?

Forgetting the remain/leave argument for a second. It's an interesting concept that parliament can "take over" and act against the law of the land as it stands at that time.

Lets all hope that it doesn't happen in the future and the action they take is something we disagree with.

 

[Howardh]

Forgetting the remain/leave argument for a second. It's an interesting concept that parliament can "take over" and act against the law of the land as it stands at that time.
Lets all hope that it doesn't happen in the future and the action they take is something we disagree with.

Isn't parliament there to create and revoke law as it sees fit? And go against public opinion in order to save ourselves from ourselves? Otherwise we might as well scrap parliament and make our laws with an ITV phone-in. Saturday Night Voteaway, shall we bring back hanging? Text 09.... your texts will cost £2.50 + your provider's charge.

Of course if we don't like what parliament does, we can vote them out every five years. Not so with Brexit, which is why it's so important to get it right right now. And it's all gone swimmingly so far.

 

[ainsworth74]

Isn't parliament there to create and revoke law as it sees fit?

Yes it is. After all Parliament is sovereign which I'm sure I recall being told was important.

 

[furnessvale]

Isn't parliament there to create and revoke law as it sees fit? And go against public opinion in order to save ourselves from ourselves? Otherwise we might as well scrap parliament and make our laws with an ITV phone-in. Saturday Night Voteaway, shall we bring back hanging? Text 09.... your texts will cost £2.50 + your provider's charge.

Of course if we don't like what parliament does, we can vote them out every five years. Not so with Brexit, which is why it's so important to get it right right now. And it's all gone swimmingly so far.

Then why, in this instance, does it need to "take over"?

The answer is that, in this instance it seems to be acting outside the bounds of our unwritten constitution where "Government" propose laws. Good or bad, depending on your point of view, but I feel some sort of genie is now out of the bottle.

 

[ooo]

Indeed! Just near us were people from the west country, Birmingham, wales (no idea how you pronounce where they were from!) and a couple from Scotland. These were the ones we talked to.

We know people who traveled on coaches from leeds Sunderland york and Darlington. ( no chance of meeting them) The train down was full of people from Brum and stoke and crewe. Peolle hsd stickers and placards so it was fairly obvious where they were off to!

They were all ages and all social strata. Must have taken some organising to get all those bots in one place! The accents must have took practice!

Ps also this was the best behaved, best mannered, and best atmosphere I have seen on any political march.

Groups from Bristol and Bath even hired a whole train from GWR for the march

 

[cactustwirly]

Then why, in this instance, does it need to "take over"?

The answer is that, in this instance it seems to be acting outside the bounds of our unwritten constitution where "Government" propose laws. Good or bad, depending on your point of view, but I feel some sort of genie is now out of the bottle.

I don't see what point you're making, Parliament can do what it wants, because it is sovereign. In this case, it is perfectly entitled to repeal the EU withdrawal Act!

 

[Howardh]

Then why, in this instance, does it need to "take over"?

The answer is that, in this instance it seems to be acting outside the bounds of our unwritten constitution where "Government" propose laws. Good or bad, depending on your point of view, but I feel some sort of genie is now out of the bottle.

I don't see the point you are making either!

 

[ainsworth74]

One could say that Parliament has taken back control! I thought people were in favour of that sort of thing?

 

[Ash Bridge]

The BBC have put up an article in the technology section quoting three tech experts who say the email verification system on petitions.uk is likely to be effective in keeping out "Bots".
If the petition gets to 5 million, it will be an unprecedented expression of a major chunk of public opinion - and again, I note the apparent absence of anything to rival these numbers from the "no deal" camp.

Just shy of 5 million now, and no sign at all of the rate of new signees slowing down, the people are speaking again it seems!

 

[bnm]

The 'Revoke Article 50' petition has just passed 5 million.

(Screenshot of gov.uk petitions website, taken at 1420 on Sunday 24th March 2019)

 

[Ash Bridge]

And barely 4 days have elapsed since its activation....

 

[Howardh]

And barely 4 days have elapsed since its activation....

It's done more in four days than the whole of the government in the last 1004!!

 

[fowler9]

Then why, in this instance, does it need to "take over"?

The answer is that, in this instance it seems to be acting outside the bounds of our unwritten constitution where "Government" propose laws. Good or bad, depending on your point of view, but I feel some sort of genie is now out of the bottle.

We live in a parliamentary democracy. The envy of the world some would have it! Didn't you want sovereignty back? We never lost it but hey ho. Where can I get a copy of the unwritten constitution by the way?

 

[Clip]

One could say that Parliament has taken back control! I thought people were in favour of that sort of thing?

We are. But worth noting that 80% I think of parliament voted to invoke article 50 and thus leave the eu

The 'Revoke Article 50' petition has just passed 5 million.
View attachment 60715
(Screenshot of gov.uk petitions website, taken at 1420 on Sunday 24th March 2019)

Which makes you wonder why this one got so many votes and the countless others didn't. Surely they all would have the same amount of voters over the years but oddly there hadn't been. Why? What's changed since the last one 2 month ago?

 

[Bletchleyite]

No — the majority of the people of this country *who voted in the referendum wanted* to leave the EU.

There is really no basis to consider that those who did not vote had any opinion other than indifference.

 

[ainsworth74]

We are. But worth noting that 80% I think of parliament voted to invoke article 50 and thus leave the eu

Sure, but part of being sovereign is the ability to have a change of mind on a subject and, indeed, reflect that change in law.

 

[DarloRich]

We are. But worth noting that 80% I think of parliament voted to invoke article 50 and thus leave the eu

but it isn't set in aspic. Things change. I know people who voted leave who now very much against leaving. The reasons they voted leave haven't really changed but they don't think Brexit will fix them. It would have been better if they listened to what they were told at the time mind! I also know several leavers still very much in the same position. They want out of the EU.

My view is that we need to ask the people what they wont: May's deal, no deal or no brexit. Ask us. Parliament is a mess. Let us decide.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

but it isn't set in aspic. Things change. I know people who voted leave who now very much against leaving. The reasons they voted leave haven't really changed but they don't think Brexit will fix them. It would have been better if they listened to what they were told at the time mind! I also know several leavers still very much in the same position. They want out of the EU.

My view is that we need to ask the people what they wont: May's deal, no deal or no brexit. Ask us. Parliament is a mess. Let us decide.

I myself voted remain but am now a staunch leaver, and a number of remainers I’ve come across are the same.

A second referendum won’t change anything. There wouldn’t be enough demeans for a remain vote to completely wipe of leave’s traction. The war would go on and on and as long as people like Farage, Mogg and Johnson continue to attract attention with soundbites there would always be enough of a pushback against a second remain vote.

 

[dgl]

I'm guessing a lot of MP's voted to enact article 50 not necessarily because they thought leaving the EU was actually a good idea but because A. Leave "won" the referendum (however fraudulent it was in the end) and that B. They thought that with a whole 2 years to sort everything out they would have plenty of time to get a good deal.
It is now turning out that not only has no good deal been negotiated but in reality could there ever be one? Plus we have a leader that won't listen and refuses to leave when that is realistically her only option.
These issues mean that in reality if we can get rid of May or at least get her to listen we can then take a step back, look at the sensible options and if that means revoking article 50 the so be it.

 

[edwin_m]

Then why, in this instance, does it need to "take over"?

The answer is that, in this instance it seems to be acting outside the bounds of our unwritten constitution where "Government" propose laws. Good or bad, depending on your point of view, but I feel some sort of genie is now out of the bottle.

Due to the way Article 50 works we are in an unusual situation that if nothing is done, the outcome will be a no-deal, which Parliament has voted against by a large majority.

We are. But worth noting that 80% I think of parliament voted to invoke article 50 and thus leave the eu

That was about respecting the result of the referendum. The EU said that no negotiation could take place without invoking A50 and Parliament therefore had little alternative. Once we know the result of that negotiation it is a good time to look at it again.

I myself voted remain but am now a staunch leaver, and a number of remainers I’ve come across are the same.

A second referendum won’t change anything. There wouldn’t be enough demeans for a remain vote to completely wipe of leave’s traction. The war would go on and on and as long as people like Farage, Mogg and Johnson continue to attract attention with soundbites there would always be enough of a pushback against a second remain vote.

I very much fear that this is inevitable, referendum or not. The result of whatever form of Brexit is chosen is likely to be damaging to the UK compared with remaining, but when that becomes evident the proponents of all the other forms of Brexit will start blaming whoever advocated the one that was chosen.

If another referendum chooses to remain, it takes most of the wind out of the "will of the people" argument which is probably the only feeble justification to go ahead with Brexit now. If it chooses to leave, then so long as it's a fair campaign voting on a clearly-defined Brexit option then I believe nearly all remainers will reluctantly accept it, and those proposing an alternative Brexit will have little ground to do so. I'm not saying it's all going to be peace and harmony - there are no good options here - but at least the government could get on with solving the real problems of the country rather than making them worse.

 

[EM2]

It is now turning out that not only has no good deal been negotiated but in reality could there ever be one?

There could, if the UK Government had not put in their rigid 'red lines' on what they would not accept.

Plus we have a leader that won't listen and refuses to leave when that is realistically her only option.

See above.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Due to the way Article 50 works we are in an unusual situation that if nothing is done, the outcome will be a no-deal, which Parliament has voted against by a large majority.


That was about respecting the result of the referendum. The EU said that no negotiation could take place without invoking A50 and Parliament therefore had little alternative. Once we know the result of that negotiation it is a good time to look at it again.


I very much fear that this is inevitable, referendum or not. The result of whatever form of Brexit is chosen is likely to be damaging to the UK compared with remaining, but when that becomes evident the proponents of all the other forms of Brexit will start blaming whoever advocated the one that was chosen.

If another referendum chooses to remain, it takes most of the wind out of the "will of the people" argument which is probably the only feeble justification to go ahead with Brexit now. If it chooses to leave, then so long as it's a fair campaign voting on a clearly-defined Brexit option then I believe nearly all remainers will reluctantly accept it, and those proposing an alternative Brexit will have little ground to do so. I'm not saying it's all going to be peace and harmony - there are no good options here - but at least the government could get on with solving the real problems of the country rather than making them worse.

The only trouble is of course is a large amount of brexiteers seem to favour no deal. I don’t think the political system will want to accommodate no deal in a second vote and so even if a May’s Deal type Brexit wins, it’ll just lay the groundwork to an even cleaner break later on.

 

[DarloRich]

If another referendum chooses to remain, it takes most of the wind out of the "will of the people" argument which is probably the only feeble justification to go ahead with Brexit now. If it chooses to leave, then so long as it's a fair campaign voting on a clearly-defined Brexit option then I believe nearly all remainers will reluctantly accept it, and those proposing an alternative Brexit will have little ground to do so. I'm not saying it's all going to be peace and harmony - there are no good options here - but at least the government could get on with solving the real problems of the country rather than making them worse.

I agree with that.

 

[Groningen]

Today it was denied that 11 ministers would replace TM as PM.