If your employer is a corporate member of the IRO and you are able to show willing you may be able to get them to fund all/part of the costs of the course that would enable you to move higher up within that company.
It cant hurt to email your companies HR department to test the water
Thanks for the info. I have looked up the IRO and am joining for free as Im an employee of a TOC that is a corporate member. Their courses are rather pricey at £5000 for a Diploma and another £5000 for the degree. In the current climate I doubt my TOC will be funding such courses.Thanks for the positive input.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another turncoat....2 mins on the job and they want to manage.You need years on the railway to manage..goes with the territory..you can't manage this job with limited experience,thats why it goes tits up so quick..people with no railway background chucked into managing staff with years of experience and thinking they know the job better..sorry,not true or possible! No disrespect to you but driver managing,or any managing for that matter takes years of doing the job then applying that knowledge to the issue.I do not,and never will,believe that ANY training course will supercede experience in managing any job...ever.
Why go driving if management was your aim? You should know that driver managers dont get no respect unless they have been in the grade for years..never will do as a 20 plus year driver doesn't take too kindly to some inexperienced wannabe with a couple of years experience advising them on driving trains..and when you get reorganised and drop back down driving again (as you will,all those big head paperclip managers do),you will have no mates,as you will have crapped on them all from your temporary lofty position.
Good luck..you will need it
I have to say I was expecting such a reply but have recognised some positive aspects in your point of view.
First point Id like to make is that I decided to become a driver because I wanted to drive trains.....Just as Im looking at management and other areas of the railway industry because thats what I feel I want to do. Hope that does not offend anyone.
I feel that labelling me a turncoat is unfair and unjustified as all I asked was opinions on how I can develop myself. My interest in management is based on the experiences I have gone through and heard about as a driver, and my own motivation to make a difference.
It is based on the feeling of dissatisfaction I get when on the receiving end of sometimes counter-productive or demorallising management decisions handed down by people who does not understand things from the point of view of a driver because they have never been in that position.
By labelling me a turncoat are you in effect saying that I should know my place? That I should not feel that at some point in my career I would like to make a difference using the knowledge and experience I gained while in the driving grade? That a driver should never feel ike doing something else?
I feel that drivers are sometimes their own worst enemies. Its ok to whinge and moan and create a "them against us" attitude but the moment one of your own gets ambitious or wants to try and better things they are labelled a turncoat or scab or whatever.
So what happens? You get managers being recruited straight out of university (since it seems a crime for a driver to show interest in anything but his train) and now you have a 25 year old with ZERO years railways experience managing you with your 20 years experience or maybe even above your respected driver manager! More moaning anyone?:cry:
So get even more whinging and grumbling and reinforce our war on management attitude the cycle goes on.
No-one ever puts their head above the parapet because they will get shot down the instant they want to make a difference. I bet there are loads of drivers who would make excellent managers and senior managers who are being stifled by this attitude. Guess that makes a better railways then! It just does not make sense, its almost like being in a school playground! I find this attitude is very dissapointing. Its sad.
As for experience, I agree with you to a point. However 20 years experience will not teach me how to manage anything. Respect is earned through actions not driving experience. Management also needs skill and education.
Thats my point of view. Hope the discussion continues as Im finding it very interesting!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think that some of the comments above are unfair, and are typical of some of the railway old skool which fails to acknowledge that there might be any new ideas, new concepts or a better way to run things.
You might spend 20+ years as a driverand still be a **** poor manager, you might spend 5 years becoming technically competant as a driver and having a thorough understanding of the job and then find that you were born to lead and manage people, and combined with your skills as a driver this lends itself perfectly to driver management.
If you choose to develop yourself, then I say good on you, and I hope that you are encouraged by your company to do the same, but please, I beg you to not be discouraged by the comments by some above.
Thank you very much for the support. I couldnt have put it better!
I know there are loads more people in this industry who are lost for ways to improve themselves or change careers within the industry due to this attitude that one is chained to their role.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Railway management jobs these days are not what they were.
In a lot of cases we are directed to apply decisions from above that simply will not work on the ground, or are actually detrimental to the business. The Manager is the guy in the no win situation in the middle.
The more senior jobs are now never available to those who have any experience at the front line, the idea being that these managers are "tainted" with the wrong experience.
As a result we either get someone outside the Industry who is passing through on their way to a Directorship somewhere, or younger "Managers" who are filled with incredible amounts of business theory but no life experience.
The Railway is primarily a PEOPLE business where the ability to lead the front line is absolutely critical to its sucessful operation. The only "successful" Manager will therefore be the guy who understands HOW the front line works, what can and cannot be done, and how the people at the front think. Management at that level still requires a fair degree of respect. You need to be a Manager and a Leader. Some people can Manage but not Lead, some can Lead but not Manage. Some can do neither either through a lack of life experience or ability.
Simply having a good degree confers neither practical managerial ability nor leadership skills.
A good Manager (and Leader) knows how people think, knows his people, and more importantly knows when to walk away for a cup of tea when the odd corner is being trimmed. Good Management is not the application of blanket rules and procedures, it is obtaining the best results from a disparate group of people, most of whom do their best, if they don't always succeed as you wish.
Staff should feel able to confide in their Manager, especially when they have done something that is not quite right without fear of the consequences. Sadly that element is now long gone in many cases, mostly through the loss of the practical experience we once had. Modern Managers are normally reluctant to exercise judgement preferring instead to apply the rules, even when the situation is clearly one for wise words and guidance.
As a result much of our workforce is demoralised and to a large extent "disenfranchised" from contributing to running a successful operation.
Finally I would offer the comment that a Manager is expendable by those above, and many modern "Managers" will not hesitate to sacrifice a Manager below them as a scapegoat. Managers have no Union and no defence. Anyone thinking of going into Management needs to think the implications of that through.
Early today ironically I was talking to a very good Manager who was recently sacrificed on the altar of expediency by his Manager. The good guy has gone the poor substitute remains. Once more the Industry is the poorer.
Thanks Old Timer.
Your points are very accurate which is why I was of the opinion that maybe those within the industry could get the paper qualifications to move into management. Maybe in time the culture will change but it definately will not unless the people who actually do the work better themselves and show they have the ability to think at management level. Unfortunately the modern world requires an education as proof i.e a degree.
I am in total agreement with you as to what makes a good manager. However, how do these traits get recognised in an individual? What options are there to get noticed. I believe qualifications give you a wider understanding of how buisnesses work allowing you to understand and input to higher management with your unique perspective of having been in the operations role hopfully for the benefit of the buisness as a whole.
As for respect, I am in the same boat. You have to manage what you know....which is why I believe that management should come from within, should work its way up the ladder, just like any other industry.
As for lack of job security, that comes the current culture where middle and traincrew managers have nothing but experience on their cv leading them to at the mercy of upper management as everyone is too afraid to challenge them as they have
no qualifications to fall back on creating a bunch of ineffective yes man with no chance of making a difference within the railway and are unemployable outside it.
Qualifications and education will allow greater movement within the industry and between industries such as road and air which can only be a good thing. People should not be trapped in their jobs as it leads to dissatisfaction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
My first thought was to suggest some OU study, but you are obviously ahead of me on that. I don't know how seriously Business courses are taken. I'm not having a dig. I know it's very highly respected at post grad level, and a lot of people are very sniffy about it up until A levels, I just don't know at what point it starts being taken seriously. I have heard an Econ teacher of mine say some very good things about a particular International Business course, so at least some of them are pretty highly regarded.
I would think the IRO would be best subject to cost. You might want to think about courses at your local FE college. A new A Level is at a lower level than a degree (obviously) but would still show you studying and make your application stand out. It would also enable you to start studying a new subject. They might do ILM courses or AAT courses. AAT isn't that relevant but they might think it would help with the financial aspects of management.
Have you tried phoning or emailing your HR department or even dropping in on them if you happen to be in the same building for some reason? They would know best what the company wants.
Maths A level might look good. It is a b*tch of a subject but if you can get a decent grade it should look good. Most engineers have to take it to get in, so quite a lot of the senior managers will have it. A module called D1 might be helpful. It is described as being very good for business and economics and included critical path analysis, which might help with train management.
EDIT
M1 and M2 should be much easier for you than for most people if you managed to get a train driving job. It is Mechanics which is all about acceleration etc. Most of the examples are train.
Hi and thanks for the input. I am going to stick with the OU as my shift patterns are so erratic I cannot commit to an evening course. I will look into the courses you suggested. Thanks for the input.
Would be great if TOCs offered such courses to staff for self development as it would be a great moral booster!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Most of the DM's at our place went up through being an instructor driver. However, it does depend on there being opportunities and it's not a fast-track.
O L Leigh
Thank you. Are there any other options or openings apart from the instructor and DM route? There should be more openings similar to graduate schemes runs by TFL and other companies.
ad: