1930s LMS close-coupled 4-wheeled coaches

[Peter Fox]

I'm currently looking at an accident report (http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Pontllanfraith1933.pdf) which occurred in 1933 on the Sirhowy branch of the LMS. The description of the rolling stock is ...eight 4-wheeled coaches made up of one three-coach close coupled unit,... I'm wondering what these would have looked like.

 

[krus_aragon]

I'm not familiar with the term, but it appears that the Met Railway stock preserved at the Bluebell Railway are an example of close-coupled stock. Digging a bit more on their website, I found an article reproduced from the December 1898 edition of The Engineer:

NEW TRAINS FOR THE METROPOLITAN RAILWAY COMPANY.
The Metropolitan Railway Company have recently put on their line a series of new and specially-designed trains that have been built for them by the Ashbury Railway Carriage and Iron Company, Limited, of Manchester, and are examples of what can be done in the way of making travelling on city or suburban lines, or over short distances, comfortable.
...
The trains are fitted with the automatic vacuum brake, and consist each of six carriages, mounted on four-wheeled bogies, a van being at either end. They are close coupled, and will run as block trains, the vans only being provided with the usual couplings. The bogies and underframes are built entirely of steel, the former of patent flanged plates and the latter of channels.

The impression I get is that they are similar to modern multiple-units, in that they have a non-standard intra-unit coupling method, but standard couplers at either end of the unit.

 

[Peter Fox]

I'm familiar with close-coupled stock but no bogies appear to be involved here. I'm guessing three 4 wheeled coaches with two close couplings giving a total of 6 axles in one 'unit'. This combination seems a bit odd and the date is interesting when there can't have been many 4-wheel coaches left.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The LMS used ex North London Rly 4 wheelers on the Swansea Vale lines for miners / workmens trains , and very likely in other Valleys that they served.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm familiar with close-coupled stock but no bogies appear to be involved here. I'm guessing three 4 wheeled coaches with two close couplings giving a total of 6 axles in one 'unit'. This combination seems a bit odd and the date is interesting when there can't have been many 4-wheel coaches left.

That would surely be articulated rather than just close-coupled? I assume close-coupled would still be independent vehicles but with a shorter buffing/coupling arrangement between them. Perhaps similar to the EPB arrangement:
http://www.bloodandcustard.com/2epbbr001.html

It was intended to couple these vehicles with an intermediate buckeye coupler. However, after the first was completed, it was found that the unit length would cause problems at certain ‘tight’ locations so the centre buffer and chain three link coupling (as used on the ‘SR type’ 4 EPB units) was substituted thus shortening the overall unit length by 8" to 132' 8½".

 

[pdeaves]

That would surely be articulated rather than just close-coupled?

I don't think so. Three bodies in an articulated arrangement would likely be one bogie at each end and one under each intermediate 'join'; 8 axles in total for a 3 body rake. Close coupled three car-vehicles would have 2 axles per vehicle or six axles total, as per the original post.
The first post perhaps cut the quote from the accident report awkwardly as it says there were two three-coach four-wheel rakes and two normal four-wheel vehicles (eight vehicles total).

 

[edwin_m]

I don't think so. Three bodies in an articulated arrangement would likely be one bogie at each end and one under each intermediate 'join'; 8 axles in total for a 3 body rake. Close coupled three four-vehicles would have 2 axles per vehicle or six axles total, as per the original post.
The first post perhaps cut the quote from the accident report awkwardly as it says there were two three-coach four-wheel rakes and two normal four-wheel vehicles (eight vehicles total).

Agree - I was trying (badly) to make the point that if they shared a bogie they would have been described as articulated rather than close-coupled.

 

[Journeyman]

When did the last 4-wheel coaches operate (prior to Pacers!)?

Did any make it into the BR era?

 

[DerekC]

There is a photograph of a close-coupled set of 4-wheelers in LMS livery in South Wales at:

https://lnwrs.zenfolio.com/p309238320/h5BFB1995#h5bfb1997

 

[Taunton]

I think the last 4 wheelers of all were indeed on South Wales miners' trains, but believe the last mainstream operation was suburban services from London Broad Street up the Great Northern lines to Welwyn, Hertford, Edgware and High Barnet, hauled by Jinty 0-6-0T locos from Devons Road, Bow, shed. This was due to some old operating agreement between the North London Railway and the GNR, later LMS and LNER, to overcome the lack of terminal capacity for GNR local services, and because the financial arrangements were unfavourable to the LMS they ran them with the cheapest stock. I believe all the 4 wheelers mentioned here had wooden, non-upholstered seats, which you can understand for the miners' services in the days before pithead baths, not so much for the City of London commuters to their Northern Heights homes. They were probably the same former NLR stock. With nationalisation the GNR line services were finally changed over to Eastern Region locos and proper stock, and some of the branches transferred to the Underground Northern Line, and some Broad Street services to the remaining lines ran until the 1976 electrification.

 

[BR Boy 125]

I'm currently looking at an accident report (http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Pontllanfraith1933.pdf) which occurred in 1933 on the Sirhowy branch of the LMS. The description of the rolling stock is ...eight 4-wheeled coaches made up of one three-coach close coupled unit,... I'm wondering what these would have looked like.

Do the Stanier Period III coaches ring a bell?

 

[BR Boy 125]

Do the Stanier Period III coaches ring a bell?

Actually don't listen to me I'm spluttering complete rubbish.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When were any ex-Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway 4-wheel coaches still running in the 1930's period and if so, where would they have been used?

 

[Lucan]

I assume close-coupled would still be independent vehicles but with a shorter buffing/coupling arrangement between them. Perhaps similar to the EPB arrangement:
http://www.bloodandcustard.com/2epbbr001.html

I remember the EPBs as having, within the rake, just single spigot and socket couplings in the centres of the buffer beams. There must have been a spring or something inside, because the spigot would sllde in and out a bit when starting or braking, and had a worn polished surface, as could be seen from the platform.

Can someone explain how they worked? Eg how were they uncoupled at the depot? It worried me that the lateral movement of one coach would drag the other across with it, such that on a tight cross-over the two adjacent coaches could be "fighting" each other, wanting to move in opposite directions.

 

[edwin_m]

I remember the EPBs as having, within the rake, just single spigot and socket couplings in the centres of the buffer beams. There must have been a spring or something inside, because the spigot would sllde in and out a bit when starting or braking, and had a worn polished surface, as could be seen from the platform.

Can someone explain how they worked? Eg how were they uncoupled at the depot? It worried me that the lateral movement of one coach would drag the other across with it, such that on a tight cross-over the two adjacent coaches could be "fighting" each other, wanting to move in opposite directions.

The link talks about a three-link coupling and centre buffer. If that's correct there's probably no different from a conventional buffer and coupling, except there was just one buffer and presumably it had twice as much spring force. A lateral movement would put the coupling at an angle, so would pull the coaches closer and compress the buffer a bit.

I assume the close-coupling means there wasn't enough room for someone to get between the coaches so it would probably have to be done over a pit in the depot.

 

[Taunton]

The 1938/56 Class 503 Wirral emus were similar, just a simple bar in the middle, no buffers at the unit end either, just a buckeye. They needed special match wagons to be taken to the main works at Horwich. The same era Class 502 Southport line emus were the opposite, they had full, in fact oversize-looking, buffers and screw couplings. I wonder why the difference. I think they were just not uncoupled except at workshops, when it was presumably necessary to get the spanners out. There isn't the need to have any buffers within the unit if you do it like this.

 

[Lucan]

The link talks about a three-link coupling and centre buffer. If that's correct there's probably no different from a conventional buffer and coupling, except there was just one buffer

AFAIR the EPBs had no visible 3-link coupling. The spigot and socket were all that was visible. I guess there was some kind of coupling bar enclosed within the spigot and socket.